Native Americans vs. Uyghur & Tibetans
The story ran in both English and Chinese, and has obviously been sitting in a file waiting for the right moment to be published. I believe, prompted by all this news about the Dalai Lama and an arms deal with Taiwan, somebody decided that moment should be now.
Why the American Indians?
The story of the struggle between United States and its native inhabitants runs parallel to China’s relationship with Xinjiang’s Uyghurs and the Tibetans with the exception of one major difference: time. While ours has mostly become history, this battle in China – evidenced by certain riots last July – is very much a current dilemma Listen to the language of the two pieces (which, by the way, are completely different articles) and notice how they are making a story out of a non-event:
“The Native Americans are living at risk in the United States.” (English)
“Native American culture…is facing the danger of extinction” (translated Chinese)
“Some Indian tribal languages are vanishing among native tribal members.” (English)
“Now it’s rare in the United States to see the head feathers and face decorations of the Native Americans.” (translated Chinese)
What’s the Point?
The unspoken yet subtle argument of these articles is simple: you’ve got problems, too, America. All of the statements above are correct, of course, but that isn’t an adequate defense. One of my students once tried to argue their way out of not turning in their assignment by pointing out that one of his classmates also forgot. I failed them both.
I would have laughed even harder, however, if that student had pointed to a kid who failed to turn in his homework 100 years ago as his excuse. The analogy isn’t perfect, of course, but you get the idea.
The Hypocrisy of it All
On one side you have the Chinese, who speak of a Native American culture dying within the beautiful reservations of New Mexico while ignoring the fact that they just tore down Kashgar’s Old City for the purpose of “modernization”.
On the other hand I’m not convinced that the U.S. was completely fair to the Native Americans and didn’t handle the situation very well in the beginning the way that the U.S. handled their native people was a complete failure. Our government tends to believe that the lessons learned from this should be shared on a global stage while China wants them to just focus on their own problems.
Neither side is going to own up to its hypocrisy, though, which means that one of the few results of this feud is going to be stupid articles like this one in Xinhua that is passed off as being “news”.
What do you think? Is it wise for China to bring the Native Americans into this fight or are you suprised it took them so long?
Update 2/03: I have received a stronger reaction from this post than I expected. I apologize if it seems that I brush past the plight of the Native Americans. I am not. I have not researched that situation as much as I would like and so I prefer to not open my mouth too wide. I am merely pointing out how unfair it is to use another person’s suffering as a defense for your own behavior.
"with the exception of one major difference: time."
Man, there is another difference, even more important.
Native Americans –> near extinction
Native Tibetans –> population doubled in 50 years.
Maybe the US really should teach China a lesson as to how to "handle" the problem.
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It seems Native Americans are frequently one of the talking points when nationalistic Chinese respond to American criticism of China's minority policy. It is opportune to put a spread in Xinhua, as you said, though.
It's unfortunate that Xinhua chose not to interview anyone for this story though. The pictures seem ambiguous at best with respect to the claims of the text… I doubt Native Americans would want Xinhua speaking for them anymore than Uyghurs or Tibetans would.
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The hypocrisy of the Chinese stance is one thing, the message to the West is another. If China suggests that America get off of its high horse when it starts moralising about minorities, environment, human rights or anything else there is no doubt that it has some right to do so. Western nations ascended to their current positions on the back of exactly the kind of policies that they now criticise in developing nations.
This is not in any way to justify the actions of the Chinese government, of course, but rather to suggest that criticism of this kind carries a whole lot more weight when coming from individuals or institutions not themselves directly associated with exactly the same kind of actions. The situation in Xinjiang is pretty much incomparable with what happened in America: the Uyghur have not been slaughtered wholesale; exposed to devestating pathogens; enslaved and corralled. If China cheated on its test, America stole the answers, broke the windows and beat up the teacher.
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James, you made a mistake in your last sentence:
"China cheated on its test". This is incorrect. The politically perfect sentence should be:
China cheated, cheats/is cheating, and will cheat on its test.
Moreover, "America stole the answers, broke the windows and beat up the teacher."
Forget it, they are all past tense (i.e. "While ours has mostly become history"). After all, the US has passed its PhD dissertation, and has become a fully-fledged lecturer. Its motto perhaps is "do what I say…"
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@Anonymous – Like I said, I agree that the situation wasn't handled well by the U.S., but I'd have to see some credible research before I start to believe that the Tibetans are better off thanks to all of this!
@kepsiz – Good point. The images are stock photos that really say nothing about the story and help the Native Americans in no way.
@James – Thanks for weighing in, but I think I beg to differ about there being similarities. In fact, the similarities are so apparent that even the Chinese see it and post this kind of article on Xinhua.
Also, when you talk about being exposed, I think you very much forget about everybody who died as a result of the nuclear testing in Lop Nor. That's a biggie.
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Josh,
"In fact, the similarities are so apparent that even the Chinese see it and post this kind of article on Xinhua."
I take that as evidence that you sincerely believe there are similarities between the fate of Tibetans in China and the native Indians in the US.
You also states that "… I'd have to see some credible research before I start to believe that the Tibetans are better off thanks to all of this!"
Well, better off or not could be a rather subjective issue depending on who you are and what measures you take, etc. Nevertheless, would you agree that the Tibetans as a people are much better off than their native Indian "counterparts"?
I think the point here is that is the US a bit hypocritical in lecturing (sincere and measured suggestion/advice should be welcome) China what to do? I don't think some heavy-weight research is needed in this case. Common sense should suffice.
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I'm somewhat surprised at this post. I had much respect for Josh, but now I confess that that
has faltered a bit.
China has done much for its minorities – much more than what can be said for Red Indians in America or Aborigines in Australia; or the tribals in India's Naxal Belt (many of whom started a movement called Naxalism to protest the lack of development in those areas and years of government neglect. This phenomenon has been called by the Indian PM as the 'Biggest internal security threat to the country').
In 2007 there was a 6.8 magnitude earthquake just 100 miles away from Kashgar. In 1902, there was an 8.0 earthquake, one of the 20th century's biggest, which killed 667 people. Clearly, this is a highly earthquake prone area.
Yet, I feel that what Josh and the western media would rather that when an earthquake strikes, Kashgar's citizens would die beneath those old and crumbling houses. (At least they will die preserving their own 'culture'!) If that happens, the same western media will say that – look – the Chinese government has not developed the minority regions!! Therefore, it discriminates against minorities!
Consider the state of exiled Tibetans in India. For fear of losing Tibetan 'culture', the Tibetan government in exile doesn't allow them to intermarry with non-tibetans. Many don't know English or Hindi and can't get jobs or an education. (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1884187,00.html)
Also, China is not 'using another person's suffering as a defense for its own behavior'!
If China really discriminated against minorities, then why is the one-child policy relaxed for them? The Western media keeps saying that China 'encourages Han migration into the region so that Han become the majority', without giving any evidence of it. The majority of the Han grants are just trying to escape poverty and unemployment in their own areas, but the Uygurs consider them as competitors, taking land, jobs and other scarce resources from local people.
However, if China develops the autonomous regions, then more Han will migrate there in
search of jobs, sometimes at the cost of locals. Then what is the government supposed to do, not develop the regions at all? (Also I understand that their are reservations for minorities in educational institutions).
I think that the riots were a result of there being very less people to people contact between Uyghurs and Han Chinese – they just don't trust each other, and not because of any
Government policies, as in India.
Maitreya
http://indiaschinablog.blogspot.com/
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@Maitreya –
First, in regards to infrastructure and the modernization of Kashgar, you make a valid point that if a major earthquake were to hit again, it may cause devastation. The problem occurs (which is a major theme here) in that China’s leadership does not discuss or work with the Uyghurs. Rather, they force them out of house and home, and let the tension boil. Not to mention that many of these buildings could have been saved/retrofitted.
Secondly, the argument that China is “easier” on the Uyghurs is absurd. I think it’s great that they don’t enforce the one-child policy, but what good does that do when you are living a life that is void of rights? And the problem with Han migration is that the Uyghurs want to preserve their culture and way of life, and with the population shifting to majority Han, the youth will no longer speak Uyghur (they will speak Chinese), and they will no longer carry on the traditions that have made them unique for over a thousand years. On this topic of preserving culture, I want to be very clear that what the United States did to the Native Americans was absolutely wrong, and reprehensible. The difference is that China hasn’t completely wiped out the Uyghurs, and there is still chance to come to a cooperative agreement that allows Uyghurs’ self-determination.
Lastly, your statement, “I think that the riots were a result of there being very less people to people contact between Uyghurs and Han Chinese – they just don't trust each other, and not because of any
Government policies” could not be farther from the truth. The government controls the media in China; therefore it could be considered “policy” when the only thing spewing out of Xinhua and the People’s Daily is negative fabrications about the terrorist and separatist activities of the Uyghurs. You are right in that a majority of the Han does not hold their views because of contact with the Uyghurs, but rather, it is because of China’s calculated language, and off-putting image that they cast upon the Uyghurs and Xinjiang.
-Erland
http://uyghurblog.com
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Erland,
"self-determination". sooner or later, somebody is going to hold up this holy banner. Self-determinate what? Nobody else other than Uyghurs can settle here? Oh, let's start the "we are here first" argument. The Uyghurs are the natives (and nobody else), so this is our land. Get out, otherwise, we cut your throats. Is this the metality of the so-called "self determination"?
"negative fabrications about the terrorist and separatist activities of the Uyghurs.", you must really believe that in this world only you and the Chinese government are the master of information. While the Chinese government fabricates, you tell the truth. The rest of us only have two choices, either beleive the Chinese propoganda or the truth of yours?
You get to teach us how the evil Chinese fabriated the 120 or so killings last year. You should also enlighten us as to how to shed a positive light on the holy non-terrorist, non-separtist activities of the Uyghurs (some Uyghurs to say it more accurately) who enthusiastically took a hand in the killings.
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Josh, you are getting famous now.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8492224.stm
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@Anonymous –
I apologize for the obvious animosity that you have on this topic. We should all remember that this is a very sensitive subject, and there are no black and white answers. I want to quickly address some of the items you brought up because they are very counterproductive to a meaningful conversation. In regards to “self-determination”, I am not claiming that Xinjiang should be Uyghur only, that’s unrealistic. The actual definition of self-determination is it “embodies the right for all peoples to determine their own economic, social and cultural development.” Unfortunately, this cannot be achieved with bulldozers and batons.
The violence on and around July 5th was inexcusable, however, it did happen. If you think that “120” individuals were killed (assuming that they were mostly Han), I think you should attempt to get primary accounts of what happened during this event. The Uyghurs who acted with violence were wrong to do so, I agree. I just ask you not to be ignorant to how the protest originally started, and the conditions that the Uyghurs were dealing with before the event took place.
I don’t claim to know everything. It’s actually impossible to know everything because of the absolute restriction of information coming in and out of China. I believe there is a reasonable and peaceful way to resolve the tension in both Xinjiang and Tibet, and move the country forward as one unit with all sorts of different parts. It begins with an opening up of the media, and a lot of reconciliation.
P.S. Congratulations Josh. It is great to see a blogger have such a large impact on the international community. BBC. Well done!
-Erland
http://www.uyghurblog.com
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Erland,
The genuine grievances of the Uyghurs should be addressed, so are the ones of other ethnic groups in China. The Han Chinese also have theirs. So, if the intention is, as you have pointed out, how to move the country forward as one unit, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that demand. However, what we are seeing now is not, again as you have pointed out, a problem with black and white answers. Unfortunately, many people, especially those who stand far away and pretend to know the answers straight away always like to paint a black and white picture (for whatever reasons/agendas), i.e. the innocent oppressed Tibetans and Uyghurs and the evil Chinese oppressor. Moreover, they often say that the silver bullet is "self-determination".
There were "self determinations" in Cyprus, former Yogoslavia, Kosovo and Georgia. Who win and who lose? The politicans and the elites of the society who can gain power and wealth later win, so do the powers who stood behind. What about the people who suffered and is still suffering or even perished?
Self determination, who is the judge here? Where is the limit? Can the Serbs in Kosovo self-determinate? What about the Turks right to self-determinate in Cyprus (their country is not really recongnised)?
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I am a Chinese currently living in USA. Since I came to USA, I have noticed there is no black graduate students in this big building.This
state has more than 30% black population. If I see some black people, they are the cleaners. I also noticed black people and Latin
Americans usually do manual labour, such as building house or attendants.
Before I came to USA, I read some tips about living in USA. One of them is always putting 5 or 10 $ in your pocket, if black guy asks for
money, just give them.(My friend in Virginia was robbed last year.) My roommate(who has a house in a central state) told me white poeple
do not like to live with Black people. It seems Michelle Obama also said that. I also heared there are more black in US prisons. Have I
ever met a Native American in 2 years? I don't think so. They seem to have disapeared.
My bike was stolen just after one day I bought it. A black guy tried to open my lab door during Xmas holiday. Actually I was inside but
he didnot see me. I called the campus police, the policeman arrived after half an hour. My neighbour(also black people)told me one guy
peered from outside of window at midnight. I was scared. I donot discriminate against any people. Why black people have much higher crime
rate? Has anybody thought about that. I told my friend black people maybe need another 150 years to reach the same lever of white people.
Nobody say these in public, but it does exist.
No offese to US and American people. That's just my experience so far.
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When I was in China, some friends and classmates are minorities, such as Man, Mongolian and others. But I even didnot know that after a long time. However, tt's very easy to know Hui people because their religious belief. I really enjoyed Muslim noodles. Average Chinese really do not care about what ethnic group the people (including hifself/herself) are from. However I noticed US gov tortured the uigher people in Guantanamo prison. And US gov,congressmen and most Americans donot allow to release them in US territory. Why? These gentlemen said they are not terrorists. The four uighers released in Palau said they still wore handcuffs on the flight to Palau. If they are terrorists, why not send them to China? If they are not terrorists, why not release them in US? Mr. Cheney strongly criticized obama's plan to close infamous Guantanamo prison. What a shame.
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I would like to state for the record that I regret posting this article – not for the content as much as for the misunderstandings. Many people have correctly pointed out that I don't have a good grasp of the Native American history and I wasn't trying to act as if I did.
Also, I am not sticking up for America's actions here. As I said above, BOTH parties are equally hypocritical and it bothers me to see another group of people thrown into this mud fight against their will. All the things the Xinhua article mentioned about the Native Americans are CORRECT. But does Xinhua really give a crap about the Native Americans?
I appreciate the comments and I've learned a good lesson here.
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I donot hate any ethnic groups in China. I have not reason to hate them. I respect them. I welcome them to preserve their own cultures and languages. No doubt, they are the treasures of China. I don't think Chinese gov is trying to eliminate them. Actually chinese gov did much better than other countries. Monirities have more right than Han people. But monirities usually live in mountain areas, or border areas, it's hard to improve their living levers as fast as eastern coast areas. (It's the same that Mississippi is much poorer than NY.) Yes, Chinese gov needs to do more. But China is developing country, local govs sometime do not carry out central gov's policies. Or Chinese people need to change their views about some issues, such preserving the culture sites. Bad things not only happen in Kashi, but also in Beijing. A lot people just want to live in modern building with all kind of modern facilities. But they have not realized that if these historical sites are distroyed, they will never get back. But no negotiation with terrorists. I donot think Obama will talk with Osama bin Laden.
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@Erland
I appreciate your comment (on my comment).
Your first point is that the reconstruction work is being carried out without consulting the Uyghurs. Well, may I tell you that the regional government is filled with – guess who – Uyghurs.
Secondly, since I have no way of verifying this independently, I'll quote a NYT article, which seems to be biased for the most part, except maybe this:
"The city says the Uighur residents have been consulted at every step of planning. Residents
mostly say they are summoned to meetings at which eviction timetables and compensation
sums are announced."
(http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/28/world/asia/28kashgar.html?_r=1)
Note that this is not the Chinese state media, but American.
Your second point is that the relaxation of the one-child policy has no meaning if Uyghurs have
no rights. What rights are you talking about? They have the right to food and water – I don't think any minorities are so poor that they don't get three square meals a day. They have the right to education – The right to education bill of 1986 ensured that. They have the right to practice their religion – there are mosques in Xinjiang. I've heard that only government officials are not allowed to practice their religion in public. Well, that's because China is officially atheist. This doesn't count as discrimination, since it applies to Han Chinese too.
Your next point is about preserving Uyghur culture and way of life. First of all, as some others have also pointed out, to say that Uyghur culture lies in bricks and mortar in a city is insulting it.
It lies in people's hearts and minds and way of life. Speaking of preserving culture and way of
life, how exactly will that be (largely) affected by Han migration? The government is not stopping them from living their life the way they want to.
Then you made the point about language. Well, let me remind you that bilingual education has
existed in Xinjiang since 1992. As far as higher education is concerned, it is true that the Uyghur language has been phased out of higher education. But that is the result of many other factors.Will you send your children to an institute which teaches engineering in Uyghur? This same problem exists in India too, as well as many other countries.
Next you go on to say that 'only thing spewing out of Xinhua and the People’s Daily is negative fabrications about the terrorist and separatist activities of the Uyghurs'. Just go to any Chinese news website and search Uyghurs. You will get only positive and optimistic news reports about Xinjiang. Also, are you implying that just because Xinhua carries a news item about separatists, it is implying that all Uyghurs are separatist? Are all Muslims terrorist simply because some of them carry out terrorist attacks?
You seem to suggest that the resentment and rioting is caused by the media!!
I don't think that the media casts an 'off-putting' image about Uyghurs at all. Just search the websites and you know. Note that terrorists are a different case.
In conclusion, I would just like to say that the moment it is known that Kashgar is earthquake prone – the discussion should stop and the residents evacuated immediately.
Even if they are given less compensation as some western media reports say (without giving
any evidence for it), it is any case better than dying in an earthquake, isn't it?
Instead of being thankful to the government, you are saying it discriminates. The government
gives more importance to saving people's lives (the memories of the Sichuan earthquake are
still fresh in their minds), than to preserving some old and crumbling piece of Muslim
architecture. If the government wanted to wipe all such architecture out, there are many other
historical places in Xinjiang that it could have destroyed – Why choose (85% of)Kashgar?
Maitreya
http://indiaschinablog.blogspot.com
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@Josh
You're right. Xinhua doesn't give a crap about Red Indians. But for the matter of that, the western media also do not give a crap about Uyghurs. They just want a chance to write against China.
Even Tibet. Countries the world over don't give a damn about Tibet or the Dalai Lama. They just use him as a pawn against China.
Lastly, I just want to say – And I am speaking as an Indian, a country which maybe has witnessed more riots than any other ,and where 2000 (yup, 2000, that's not a typo!) ethnic groups live – There is only so much the Government can do to integrate people of different groups. The main thing is that the people should develop trust and respect for each other. And that will take time.
Maitreya
http://indiaschinablog.blogspot.com
(btw, there seems to be a problem with the commenting mechanism. That's why I had to delete my first comment and post it again).
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@Maitreya –
This is a good conversation to have, but we may have to agree to disagree on some of the topics. I’ll try to keep it short, and you can choose to respond if you’d like.
From what I understand, the regional Uyghur government is merely a pawn of Beijing, which was actually led by Wang Lequan (a Han) during the disputes in July. Mr. Lequan was the center of much Uyghur animosity and has since moved on. Your NYT article is correct and proves my point. They are “summoned to meetings at which eviction timetables and compensation sums are announced.” There is a big difference between being part of the conversation, and listening to the conversation.
My rights include more than food and water. You asked for examples, and I have many. Again, we can choose to disagree on this, but I want to give you a few. First, Islam is a certified religion in China, but it comes with restrictions in Xinjiang. Youth are not allowed to enter mosques under the age of 18, individuals are only allowed to use the state-approved version of the Holy Quran, any men working in the state sector cannot wear beards, and Imams are often searched and imprisoned. Speaking of prison, due process and a fair justice system is a right the Uyghurs do not enjoy. A good site to start with is Harry Wu’s Laogai Foundation (http://laogai.org/). I know you probably consider it Western-dribble, but one could also reference Human Rights Watch for more documented cases of many human rights violations. You can also view my blog and read about the Uyghurs illegally deported out of Cambodia who have since disappeared.
In regards to language, it would be good to see the difference between a bilingual education policy, and what is being taught in the schools. I have read concerns from Uyghur parents who are struggling to cope with the younger generation not speaking Uyghur. I understand that business is conducted in Chinese, and so there is an incentive to learn Chinese for the Uyghurs.
Xinhua and People’s Daily DO speak quite positively about Xinjiang, and all the “great things that are going on there.” There is a difference between what is going on in a region, and the people who exist in that region. During the July 5th riots, the Uyghurs were portrayed as terrorist and separatists. When I interview Chinese Nationalists living in the United States, they have a skewed view of who the Uyghurs really are because of the media. It didn’t cause the rioting, but it did not help it.
I want to be very clear that I am not a China hater. I don’t hold a grudge against the Chinese citizens, and I know that many in government are just doing what they are told. As an American, if there is any country that I want to partner with and build a relationship, it would be China. I think that they have made strides, but they have a long way to go. But what do I know? I am some young American blogger who obviously has too much time on his hands (our long comments are evidence of that).
-Erland
http://www.uyghurblog.com
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"due process and a fair justice system is a right the Uyghurs do not enjoy."
What is "liangshaoyikuan"?
"When I interview Chinese Nationalists living in the United States, they have a skewed view of who the Uyghurs really are because of the media."
The Chinese have a skewed view of a Chinese region, we Americans have a balanced view. Hehe, how could they have any "unskewed" view as you have already labelled them as "Chinese nationalist" (a lot of negative connotation carried in the west).
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@Erland
I think that the argument is getting childish here and off topic. For example, your main concern is against suppression of religion. However, we are discussing (NON) DISCRIMINATION TOWARDS MINORITIES – not FREEDOM OF RELIGION. The policy of children under 18 not being allowed inside places of worship and state employees having to shave beards – that are arguments against FRREDOM OF RELIGION, which is not what we are discussing here. These policies are not discriminatory against Uyghurs, since they are implemented even for Han Chinese (Muslims).
I find it appalling that some in the western media automatically think of minorities like Uyghurs in terms of their religion. I find this condescending. There are other things in Uyghur culture besides religion. Also, take the Uyghur practice of having multiple wives. This is not allowed according to PRC law. Will you say that this is discriminatory?
About access to a fair justice system – Well, the same laws apply to Han Chinese as well. You are again going off topic here. Your comments are suitable in a debate about LEGAL RIGHTS, not (NON) DISCRIMINATION TOWARDS MINORITIES.
About the summoning to meetings – what would you have the government do? ASK the Uyghur population to leave when it is convenient to them? Thus increasing the earthquake risk still further? The government has in fact offered incentives for those leaving early. Also, I would like to point out that the demolition of Kashgar was planned BEFORE the riots.
Also, you say, "There is a difference between what is going on in a region, and the people who exist in that region". What do you mean by 'What is going on in a region'? Aren't the people part of it?’
“During the July 5th riots, the Uyghurs were portrayed as terrorist and separatists.” I don't think they were. Only Uighur separatists are portrayed as separatists, not the normal Uyghur citizens. The media outlets have separate pages for minorities – Xinjiang, Tibet etc.
Your interviewing Chinese in the US is a moot point. Variance of opinion exists everywhere. For eg. on this blog, a Chinese living in the US commented that they respect Uyghurs.
(PS – i don't think you have too much time on your hands. After all, commenting takes only about 4-5 mins :-))
The Uyghur population has increased by about 60 % since 1990, due to govt. policy. That’s why Han Chinese talk about special privileges about minorities, as a commenter did. The bottom-line is what I said earlier, the govt. wants Uyghurs to live better and safe lives – God and Religion are not going to help them in an earthquake or to get jobs – the government is, and does.
Maitreya
http://indiaschinablog.blogspot.com
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Anon says: June 5th, 2010 at 3:03 am
Religion is Poison, Mao said. And based on that prejudice, Modern China was build. So what can we expect?
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Congrats Josh!! Nice to see you getting referenced on a website no less than the BBC!!
Keep up the good work!!
Maitreya
http://indiaschinablog.blogspot.com
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"Our government tends to believe that the lessons learned from this should be shared on a global stage"
I don't believe that the US government truly believes that. There would be many individuals who would argue that the current treatment of Native Americans and other ethnic minorities absolutely appalling in this country. And how much we tried to push our way of life onto other people because we believe it is the "right" to live. Vietnam wasn't too long ago, Iraq is still going on, soon there will be Afghanistan and perhaps countless other nations in this world.
I am feel like it is somewhat ridiculous to respect a "peaceful" nation as long as they don't do anything bad as long as they are an ally of the US. Especially if their wrong doings and oppression is in the acceptable form of oppression (lack of women's rights), but other forms of oppression is absolutely horrendous as long as it doesn't fit the western view of right and wrong.
I don't agree with what is happening to the Uyghurs, nor do I agree that women should travel around in 100 degree heat covered from head to toe as a form of "modesty", but it wasn't so long ago that I read in "Three Cups of Tea", that this is okay because we must respect another's culture. But at the end, I have to respect them. When does it end that we stop judging other countries, or other cultures because of our own biases?
White Americans grow up having been taught that white people are right, that their laws and that their ways have brought betterment in this world, that it has given people freedom. This topic has been much discussed under the topic of White Privilege, particularly White American Privilege. For your, and probably most of us who grew up in the US, we grew up watching the world through rose-colored lenses. That what we do in this world is right, while other people have been doing wrongs. Why do you think your initially post says "I’m not convinced that the U.S. was completely fair to the Native Americans and didn’t handle the situation very well in the beginning", it is not simply because you don't understand Native American history very well. Who could possibly in this country since not a whole lot is written on it ever makes it into the everyday people's readings? What that shows to me is your rose colored lens, the righteousness of Americans, how much more honorable we are here over everyone else in the world.
"Our government tends to believe that the lessons learned from this should be shared on a global stage while China wants them to just focus on their own problems."
Please.
Since the invasion of Iraq, over 4 million Iraqis have been displaced around the world. Between 2003 and 2007 only 800 refugees (over 2 million) were admitted into the US. Much of those refugees are living in neighboring countries who probably didn't ask for this either. Since 2007, the number of refugees relocated to the US is still less than 0.5%, that leaves 99.5% somewhere else in the world. And for those who end up in the US, they are facing homelessness, poverty or end up working at menial jobs when they were highly educated people in Iraq.
I'm not trying to say what China is doing is not bad, what they're doing is incredibly bad. All I can say is, I do believe they are learning from the US, many good things, but lots more bad things.
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sean says: January 1st, 2012 at 10:00 pm
Do not forget the American massacre of the phillipino natives in the early 1900s (up to 1.3 million civilians killed intentionally) or the ruthless annexation of the Kingdom of Hawaii, or that of Guam etc, or its participation in the Boxer rebellion, a movement against imperialism in China. Considering the recent years as well, even vietnam war, afghanistan, iraq, libya, the 3rd overthrow of the local non-US-bootlicker leader of Haiti etc.
The USA learned the lessons my ASS, with all due respect of course.
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Sorry about the harsh common above, got a little worked up there. =(
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Josh says: April 2nd, 2010 at 7:04 am
No need to apologize! Thanks for your comment.
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Hi, Josh,
If you want to learn more about the life of Tibetans in Tibet – since you mentioned that you would not judge before learning more, you can watch a documentary made by BBC called 西藏一年 in Chinese, or if you don’t understand Chinese, the English name should be “A Year In Tibet”. It’s non-political and objective in my mind. Hope you enjoy it and learn something from it just as I did.
Tibetan and Uyghur issues are complex. Good thing is there many rational and intelligent people who are out there searching for the truth.
You are right that one should not use others’ wrong doings to justify one’s own bad behavior. However, I don’t think to justify is the real purpose of the Chinese article. I think the Chinese is trying to remind people that while US is very ready to point out others’ flaws, it would rather not to mention the Native Americans’ misfortune. It just implies a frustration towards US (or the west), but not necessary to justify anything yet.
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The American and the European governments and people seem to be suggesting the the Chinese government ill treated and oppressed the Tibetans and Uyghurs in China. This is solely propagated by their press and mass media because they have and ulterior motive and hidden
agenda.Their aim to to break up China which they will never be able to succed.They have no moralIf ground to point finger at other people when they themseves don’t pratise what they preach. The whites are not only evil but also very arrogant.The whites are not qualified to talk about human rights, freedom and democray.you whites committed genocide against The Red Indians or the native American whether in north or south Americas or Australia. You whites made slavery as an instrument of state policy.You oppressed other Asian immigrants who came to build the railroads in the western part of America.You slaughtered them after the railroad was completed. The Australian have as late as the 1970′s the so called “white policy” and even fed the aborigines with spermcides. look how you treated the blacks and other minorities.If China were to pratise what the whites had done to their native population, China today has no minority problems.
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joyce says: April 28th, 2010 at 12:31 pm
“If China were to pratise what the whites had done to their native population, China today has no minority problems.”
Exactly!!! Han Chinese set foot in Xinjiang early than Uyghur did. Uyghur are not exactly indigenous there. They make a big deal that Xinjiang means new frontier. That was given by Qing dynasty and it was called Xijing(west land) early.
In 1950, there were about three millions(population) and 75% of them were Uyghur. There were definitely much few Uyghur in 1750. More than once, they rebeled and massecred, children and women were not spared. They are still the same, no progress. Given that, Qing did not wiped them out. Europeans had different approach. They kill 20-30 millions of America natives and rounded the rest up to the arid reservations. Everywhere Europeans colonized, they all have long and ugly history of discrimination. South Africa ended Apartheid in 1990s
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Josh says: April 29th, 2010 at 3:25 am
I find it terribly sad how biased you seem to be against the Uyghur. I’m also curious to find out which history book you are reading, because a lot of what you are repeating is either blatantly incorrect or taken out of context.
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Truth Speaker says: July 8th, 2010 at 9:53 am
Actually Joyce is 100% correct, google it.
See: Dungan Revolt
See: History of Xinjiang
Helpless people….
When you realize the crisis,
probably you are already in the stomach of Chinese monsters. I’ve witnessed and encountered all the worst things you can ever imagine. The only problem is that very few people believe my story…. Never mind :D
In Bible, there is something about the lost tribe of Gog and Magog; In Qur’an, there is also some story about the lost tribe of Yajuj and Majuj.
What is the biggest character of Yajuj and Majuj(Gog and Magog)? THEY ARE DISBELIEVERS!
Which is the biggest disbelievers-population in this planet?
Who can flay animals’ skin alive without any compassion?
Who eat babies without any fear from God?
Who killed at least 26 million Uyghurs from 1949 till now?
Who can conduct a huge genocide and make all people believe that the victims and dead people are the “actual” killers?
…………………………………………….??
Chinese people!!! Chinese people can do and already did all the horrible things you can ever imagine even something you can not imagine. Believe me, they are worse than animals, they just have the human appearances!!!
Government is worse, because the people are worse…
I hate the government, but if there is no this inhuman government, Chinese people will eat up all Uyghurs!
Wake up people, wake up!!!
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Josh says: April 26th, 2010 at 3:57 am
Thanks for your comment, although I don’t believe that returning hatred for hatred is going to help the situation much. Also, this is the first time I’ve seen cannibalism brought into the debate. :)
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joyce says: April 28th, 2010 at 11:50 am
Uyghur people!!!
You are barbaric. Your “peaceful protest” is really massacre and horrific hate crime. You killed people as young as 4 and as old as 84. You wiped out whole families. You cut up pregnant woman and threw them overpass. You people are heinous and despicable!!!
Wake up people!!! Do you want Uyghur anywhere near you? I sure do not.
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Josh says: April 29th, 2010 at 3:26 am
How many Uyghur people have you met? Racism is dangerous game to play here, no matter how heinous the crime committed by a small band of people.
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Anybody who studies the history of the American Indians, Native Americans, will find that their holocaust made the Jewish Holocaust look like child’s play. My ambition is not to diminish the audacity and inhuman atrocities the Nazi’s perpetrated against the Jews during World War II. It was a dark time in history. It certainly wasn’t the first human holocaust. Native Americans were destroyed by the multimillions, many more than the Nazis murdered under Hitler’s regime.
No one seems to care about the destruction of the Native American peoples between the landing of Christopher Columbus in 1492 and Hernan Cortes in 1519. These two individuals began the destruction of the Native American population, a systematic system of genocide that continued until the last Indian wars in 1855. Many Indian tribes were wiped out, many were depleted to the brink of extinction, all encouraged by the governments of Spain, England, France, America, and various other countries.
Children are not taught about this holocaust in America’s schools because nobody cares. The American Indian has never been given the respect as a people like the Jewish people have been since World War II. Why? “They were savages,” we were taught, so it didn’t matter. One of our United States presidents was one of the Indian Haters in our history. Andrew Jackson was his name. Troops under his leadership once burned a house that was full of Indians trying to escape the onslaught of human destruction. After they were burned alive, troopers ate potatoes in the cellar that were basted in dripping fat from the human bodies.
No, I’m not surprised that China mentions that the hands of America are dirty. The Caucasian has attempted to destroy every race it has come into contact with. Manifest Destiny and all that seemed to make it acceptable.
I am Caucasian, and I am ashamed.
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Skree says: November 5th, 2010 at 12:44 am
That still shouldn’t divert attention to what China is doing today. Perhaps a quote from one of Jackson’s contemporaries which makes mention of troops eating potatoes basted in human fat might make your claim more believable. Other than that, it’s simply a tit-for-tat between China along with its supporters and the U.S. As Josh has made mention, immigrants to this country (which include the Chinese) barely know or care little of American Indian history or current Indian issues. If US control reverted to an Indian majority, with Indians in power and demands were made to rectify past wrongs, do you think all these Chinese immigrants who have made their living in occupied America would hand that much control to Indians? When pigs fly, I bet. In the end, the U.S. and China have a lot in common with regards to their treatment of minorities.
And I’m not Caucasian. My folks were the ones who met Pizarro at Cajamarca as well as the ones duking it out against the Spanish during the wars with the Mayans in the Yucatan and the Guatemalan highlands.
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Wait, Larry, you’re ashamed of being Caucasian? Do you know for a fact that your relatives were responsible for the destruction of many Native Americans because they were Caucasian? And even if it is possible that one of your great great great great great great great great great grandparents hurt or spread disease to a native American how would that be your fault? There were several waves of European immigration to the U.S., including a large wave of Irish, Italian and many other European ethnic groups in the 19th and 20th centuries. I hardly believe that those immigrants, many of whom are most likely related to me and you, are responsible for the destruction of Native Americans. Hell there’s even theories the Native Americans were immigrants who crossed the Bearing land bridge when Siberia and North America were supposedly connected in the ice age thousands of years ago.
Do I agree with what happened and what was done to the Indians? Of course not. But I can disagree with that and be a proud American and a proud woman of European descent because I, myself was NOT responsible for that, nor were any of my living or dead relatives that I know of. And as far as the destruction of the Native Americans b (which isn’t true because there are millions of Native Americans still living in the U.S. today, not to mention millions more people with Native American ancestry)being worse than the holocaust, I would watch what you say. Comparing one genocide/atrocity in one ethnic group to another is unorthodox, unfair and inaccurate. People tend to forget about the other thousand or so genocides and direct destruction of people and cultures that have happened and are currently happening in the world today; Slavery, manifest destiny and the holocaust are all thought of as the biggest and worst things that have happened, when we had things like Saddam Hussein gassing thousands of Kurds and the Armenian genocide and the genocide that is going on right now in Sudan.
And Jimmy, before I respond to your comments about Caucasians, did you finish the 6th grade?? Your grammar/spelling is atrocious and barely understandable. As far as the whole “evil white race” thing is concerned, are you saying white people are the only people who have taken land away from other people or commmitted violent, heinous acts? What about black Africans selling their own people into slavery? What about the supposed violent Apache tribe that slaughtered other native Americans? What about the many Islamic militants that want to destroy Israel and the U.S. and any one who doesn’t agree with them in the name of Allah? What people like you try and do is paint “minority” cultures and less technologically advanced peoples that have been dominated by Europeans or other ethnic groups as innocent and deserving of reperations. Like I said before, while I don’t agree with what people have done who happen to share my same skin color, they have done what many other people have done since man walked on the earth: commit violence against other men in return for territory and survival when they were not longer able to live in their own countries.
Nowadays, Native Americans and Blacks and hell pretty much everyone that isn’t white can get a college scholarship in the U.S. JUST for being of a particular ethnicity. There are little to no scholarships for people of my particular European mix. The Native Americans have their own land and colleges and can live without paying taxes and without adhering to the same government policies that are implemented everywhere else. When someone breaks the law on a reservation they are treated differently than someone who breaks the law and isn’t on a reservation. And like I said before, early immigration to this country by other European immigrants like the Irish, Germans and Italians, was not without hardship and discrimination. Do you know about Sacco and Vanzetti? The “no Irish need apply”? What happened in the five points as depicted in “Gangs of New York”?? Every group of people that has come to this country was fleeing something with the exception of people like Columbus, who, yeah, didn’t have good intentions and spread small pox to the Indians which led thousands of deaths. But I hardly believe that any of us nowadays can trace our ancestry to Columbus. I am more likely to have Native American ancestry and or Jewish Ancestry than an ancestor who was related to Columbus.
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You cannot compare native americans and europeans to uighers/tibetans and Chinese. It was China’s land to BEGIN with. These ethnic groups have a lot of history and blood shared. Han people didn’t just show up from no where and start colonizing like the Europeans.
Chinese is Chinese, there’s really no such thing as pure “Han”. There is no racial aspect to the Chinese vs. uyghur’s because they are the same race: ASIAN. Unlike natives and europeans who are a different race. Colonization must come with some form of racial supremacy and this is not the case here.
If anything, “Han” chinese are the victims of these attacks and looked down upon. In America, there is a huge disparity between whites and colored people. The Native american/Aboriginal population is slowly being killed and no one cares. But the tibetan and uyghur population is increasing in China.
You cannot apply your white guilt, psuedo racist bull onto something completely out of context. Asians, Blacks, and Natives are all original people – we have nothing to apoligize for – especially not to Whites.
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I am an American Indian – enrolled member of the Red Lake Band of Chippewa Indians – Red Lake Indian Reservation – Minnesota – very interesting discussion.
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China should look to American and the West as an example on how to deal with minorities.
Lesson from the West and American regarding minorities:
Push them in ghettos, reservations. Force them to learn dominant language as a requirement for jobs, make city/area where minority congregate due economic policies, introduce spermacide and all sterilization method – use the media to make it seems like it is natural due to environment.
Within 1 generation, China wouldn’t even have any minority problems.
Look how successful the whites have killed of all the Native people, their language, and culture. Now Native culture are be co-opted by whites to be used slogans, mascot, and names of weapons and sport teams.
I admire white people for ruthless, conniving engenuity.
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You’re funny “john”.
The Chinese government has killed almost all Tibetans off. ONLY Han Chinese are given rights to free land and tax free status if they move to Tibet to push out the native Tibetans.
The Communist Chinese government under Mao killed 30 to 50 million people. Mao had a chance to choose democracy when the USA saved China in world war 2. We sent the flying tigers to Chongqing to save your ass. When Mao found out he could stay in power forever like an emporer he chose communist to surpress his people and keep power.
There is no freedom in China. People go to jail without any reason and no human rights.
Minorities in the USA have equal rights as any American does. The black population is one of the fastest growing. The Native Americans are wealthy (they have casinos that bring in more money than most local governments in the USA. They are educated and their culture is preserved.
BTW the USA does not have an official language. There are people here including Chinese that do not learn any English and live all their life here. Shows how stupid you are with all your comments.
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Yeah, I like the Chinese nationalist argument: “Well, China can’t be racist or treat these minorities poorly, because we allow them to have two children or more instead of just one”
Wow! Great! You know, Hispanics, Native Americans and black people have a much higher birth rate than people of European descent in America. I suppose that means we have solved racism! What a load off my back, no need to volunteer my time helping black city kids get a better education.
Also, as a historical note, the deaths due to smallpox are neither here nor there. Smallpox originated from Asia and came with Europeans not as a matter of policy but as an accident. The few cases of germ warfare in pre-modern times (like throwing diseased cattle into castles or diseased blankets) were few and far between and had nothing to do with 99.99% of disease deaths in those times. Ancient Chinese used biological warfare as well against their enemy minority groups (lands which are now considered Chinese, like the Aboriginal Taiwanese who were almost wiped out and have no tribal rights akin to American natives). Actually, smallpox originated in Asia, so I guess we can blame all those native American deaths on Chinese people for living so close to animals instead of keeping them in barns like Europeans. BUT, that would be silly.
Anyway, great luck to Uigurs and Tibetans and Han Chinese. I hope you can live side by side and work out these animosities. We Americans realize Tibet and far west China are legally Chinese territory, and will always remain so. Therefore, we are pushing for better rights for the people there and not to needlessly repeat the mistakes of 1800s America. Look instead to some model like Brazil’s respect for native tribes, or modern American tribal sovereignty within national boundaries.
Also, as a note, most people who live in America today are descendants of people who came after 1865. Blaming all modern Americans for the treatment of Indians is even more silly than blaming all modern Germans for what the Nazis did. Should Germans not criticize Guantanamo bay and US human rights failings because the German SS used to have death camps? … I’d hope you’d say no.
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FarWestChina is a website dedicated to opening the door to Xinjiang, China's most mysterious province.
My name is Josh Summers and I have an unexplained passion for this region. Although I now reside in the US, I spent almost 4 years living and traveling in the region and I continue to research the history and stories Xinjiang has to tell. If you're interested there's plenty to read about Xinjiang on this website, or learn about me on my about page.
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