Far West China

The name Xinjiang certainly begs the question as to for whom this ‘dominion’ is ‘new’. But at least its better than “Protectorate of the Pacified West” as used in the Tang dynasty… Now that would have been truly insulting.

Yaqab Beg was considered a foreigner? Ha.

Jesus Christ. I’m so tired of this “Durr what about America’s dirty laundry” BS.

Really.

So going through other people’s dirty laundry is much better. Right?

Do you ever use mirror?

kahraman on May 7th, 2010 at 4:32 am

This blog is not about the history of the United States. There are plenty of blogs that cover that subject; I’m sure many are quite critical. Trying to change the topic under discussion is the first bullet point in the 五毛党 handbook.

Josh on May 7th, 2010 at 7:41 am

I’m amused that you call this “airing dirty laundry”. I’m simply translating a history article that I read in Xinjiang. If anything you should accuse me of selling state secrets, but then you’d have to point your finger at a whole slew of people who translate Chinese material into English, including Porfiriy above.

Porfiriy on May 7th, 2010 at 7:27 am

Mirror?

1. I’m not the United States of America
2. This is a blog about Xinjiang

Porfiriy,

I think that you may need a bit anger management. Too much hatred inside.

Porfiriy,

I am sick of people like you calling people disagree with you, “brainwashed” or “brain-dead”. You are brainwashed by western liberal ranting of “self determination”. There are thousands of ethnicities world wide and 200 or so nations, so the situation of Uyghur is not uncommon. Throughout history, assimilation, and sometime outright genocide, has been going on all the time. In modern era, population growth, hi tech communication and transportation will speed up the process. Self determination is only possible when you have the power. I believe that Uyghur are Turkic and their scripts are Arabic (?) and they were converted to Muslim by force. I don’t see self determination there.

It is petty to argue whether China is a modern concept or not. Chinese civilization (written language) is recognized as one of few surviving ancient civilizations. Like it or not, history in the region has been written in Chinese (Han script) regardless of the actual territory, the number of the states or rulers. There is real historical continuity from that point of view.

It is laughable that you think that “China as a “multi-cultural” political entity is a new and novel concept”, because some leaders were foreign educated. For over two thousand years, China, or whatever you call it, has been ruled as an empire (multi-cultural, if you prefer) most of time. Yes, the empire fells and you got wars for decades because some men fought to be the ultimate alpha male.

“…the Chinese people have done the past century and CONTINUE to do with their active or implicit endorsement of the current government was to REJECT the “imperial Chinese identity.” That is truly a wacky thought. Most people just want peace and prosperity and can not care less about “imperial” or not. As I stated in previous post, Han are made of multiple ethnicities sharing the same written language. The cultural identity was nurtured in Han dynasty. Yes, you can say it was imperial too, but it did provide peace and prosperity and so much so that “Han chauvinism” still exists. After all, the written language is still called “Han zi”. Do you know “warring states”? A lot of smaller nations did not have peace.

Corruption is not Chinese, but human nature. In Chinese old saying, “birds might die for the food and people might die for the money”. India, “the largest democracy “, is more corrupted than China from the study of international research. It is obvious that democracy needs certain foundation to really work. In America, you have CEOs getting tens of millions as bonus while tax payers have to bill them out. A fair Utopia is not possible because of flawed human natures.

The ultimate empire building goes to the Europeans (British). America was built by people from Europe through genocide of the Native and African slaves. Some Chinese were slaughtered after they built American railways. A black woman had to give her seat to a white man in 1960s. By comparison, PRC has been liberal about ethnicities. Han Chinese have been genocided by “One Child” policy and massacred by Uyghur in hundreds and maimed by Uyghur in thousands. No wonder some Han are hoping a Han fundamentalism government.

Anon on June 5th, 2010 at 3:26 am

Just because China restricts any negative information especially in regards to it’s human right violation in the Uighur and Tibetans doesn’t mean it has a liberal ethnicity policies.

At least America has free media and we are free to make our own judgment. Try living in China and criticize it’s policy, I will watch how long you last.

an lushan on November 22nd, 2010 at 7:21 am

lol uyghurs converted to islam by force. Your mad joyce, stark bonkers, probably a bible basher.

Islam entered central asia around the 7th century with a few bands of arabs, and gradually the turkic tribes became muslims , mainly through sufism. This was accelerated during the migration of turkic tribes from mongolia, and xinjiang in the face of mongol expansion. And eventually that islam spread back to the turkic tribes, who like the mongols are the early inhabitors of inner mongolia, mongolia, xinjiang

and no they are not part of the chinese mother land, they are a seperate people, a nomadic people with entirely non han, manchurian or whatever beleifs way of life.
China is what is south of the great chinese wall. Everything else was annexed

@ Porfiriy
Thanks for taking your time for arguing for the cause of Uyghurs.
” How much about the great leap forward is taught in grade schools in China?” – this is a great point, a true, transparent history record never exist in China, anything negative about government we know is a leakage from the filters.
Chinese people do not dare to ask for the truth, they do not care the truth if it has no benefit for them, they cover the truth if it likely to cause any damage for them.
I wonder and appreciate the effort and sympathy of westerns pour upon the misfortune of unknown/unrelated peoples to them. I do not remember any discussion or debate started or actively joined by a Han-Chinese person regarding the problems/misfortune of peoples other than Han-Chinese.
THEY JUST DO NOT CARE OTHERS.

By the way, I am an Uyghur unfortunately living in China. I hate to tell my nationality is “Chinese” whenever asked by a foreigner.

kahraman on May 10th, 2010 at 7:07 am

While I too am largely in sympathy with Porfiriy, though I don’t think you should generalize too broadly about Han Chinese. Like Porfiriy mentions, they are not a monolithic bloc. There are plently of Han who both oppose the current system and prejudge eachother (dongbeiren are drunks, shanghairen are misers, nongmin are backwards etc.). Very casual prejudice and racism are unfortunate facts of life in China. I do agree that the government does nothing to change this and foster any meaningful inter ethnic dialogue though.

I can think of one minority group many Han nationalists try to defend….American Indians. But most defenses don’t involve learning about them or interacting with them. For some reason, I just can’t picture fenqing (angry youth) learning Navahoe, doing field work on a reservation or somehow organizing.

To get around your nationality problem, you can always say you are Uyghur or a Uyghur citizen of China. In this way you separate your nationality from the state you live in, implicitly debunking the notion of zhonghua minzu. This will also probably make many foreigners more interested in you anyway….’Chinese’ is such a vague, catch all term. ishlaring ongushluk bolsun!

joyce on May 10th, 2010 at 3:18 pm

Prejudice is neither Chinese nor Han, but the dark side of humans.

African Americans and Native Americans are still far behind according to the social statistics. I am talking about now, in one of richest countries, USA.

Annu (? minority in Japan), the more indigeous people, are still facing discriminations. I read somewhere about a story that a Japanese tried to choke his boss when he found out the boss was Annu.

kahraman on May 11th, 2010 at 1:22 am

I agree with you regarding the universality of prejudice. Overcoming bias is of no small importance when discussing Xinjiang.

joyce on May 12th, 2010 at 12:58 pm

@khraman,

The prejudices are mutual. I am far away from Xinjiang, but my perception is that Uyghur are not less racism than rednecks. “The mother of Uyghur”, gave an interesting interview in Italy. She preened like a teenage, “look at me”; she meant that she was not Asian. Then she said, “You are European, do you want yellow-skinned communists oppress you?” She is so not 21st century and quite repulsive. Her own skin is so yellow that her mentality makes her a good cartoon character. RFA interviewed a Uyghur after the riot; he said he was so happy that he did not see Han in the street.

kahraman on May 13th, 2010 at 5:34 am

I agree there are mutual prejudices. But at some point you have to move beyond your perceptions and only acknowledge facts. Unfortunately the government does not allow objective studies of this phenomenon. It would great if there were econometric studies quantifying economic discrimination against Uyghurs, or independent surveys and interviews with Han and Uyghurs themselves to give a more solid foundation for our assertions, but it isn’t to be. Xinjiang seems especially off limits to this activity. Until this changes we are largely stuck in a ‘he said she said’ type argument. Although Kadir has some legitimate reasons for her stance, she also largely avoids hard facts and perpetuates this game.

joyce on May 10th, 2010 at 4:25 pm

I don’t know much about Uyghur personally, but they seem stereotyped as “thieves” and now savage rioters. I grew up in the Northeastern. We do drink more and kick butts more too. There is at least some truth in stereotype though.

It is funny how fast the regional stereotype evolved. The region became highly populated in last century and people are almost 90% Shandong stock. From the online bickering, most Chinese don’t even know, but we can count Shandong people on our side. I have no doubt that increasing mobility will gradually reduce the regional stereotypes.

It is unfair to blame everything on the government. There is no “Han chauvinism” in education and media. I had Korean and Manchurian friends in college and we all got along fine. Marriages between Han and Manchu are not uncommon. But the traditional story telling, especially in countryside, might be different. “Great Han” this and “Great Han” that, “Han chauvinism” is unapologetic, too backward and not progressive.

kahraman on May 11th, 2010 at 1:31 am

Even if there may be some sliver of truth in a stereotype, it is still a generalization and doesn’t do justice to those members of the group who think and act otherwise (like possibly Uyghur Christians or teetotaling dongbeiren). You always need to back up such assertions with facts. Once you look at the facts you should find that the overwhelming majority of Uyghurs are neither theives nor rioters (nor are dongbeiren drunks). They go about their business like most everyone else in china, even if incidence of petty crime is higher in Xinjiang.

joyce on May 12th, 2010 at 1:42 pm

@kahraman,

Petty crime aside, the damage the riot did will last a long time, especially ethnic strife was rare in China and never up to Uyghur level. No matter how hard the government tries to cover it up, people know and people do not trust the government. The western media could whine about “crack down”; in the end the people sacked the officials with kid gloves.

It is much easier to change the policy than people’s mindset. Next riot can be triggered by a thin hair and it will be bloodier, unfortunately.

tez on May 17th, 2010 at 9:55 pm

“I don’t know much about Uyghur personally” You make a lot of comments about them then Joyce for some one who doesn’t know much about them, wouldn’t you think?

Porfiriy on May 11th, 2010 at 12:05 am

Kahraman,

It’s definitely very important to add perspective on Uyghur social issues by asking questions such as: is this unique to the Uyghurs, or is this something that’s experienced throughout China? Frequently, it indeed is the latter case, textbook stuff like collapsing social safety nets or local corruption.

As for the racism thing, it is perfectly true that Chinese from different parts of the country always wail on each other. Occasionally it erupts into a savage fight on a bus or something like that.

While acknowledging this, however, I still insist there is something tangibly different between Han racism towards Uyghurs and inter-Han ethnic rivalry.

First, I’d argue that there’s a hierarchy within the “racist food chain.” Yes, a Southern will make fun of a Northener for this and that, and visa versa. But the Southerner and the Northerner will ALWAYS agree on their evaluations of minorities as either amusing and colorful or dangerous and in need of control. A northener may make a joke about a southerer’s accents or eating habits, but BOTH of them will nod over a cup of baijiu about how Uyghurs are poor because they’re lazy, ungrateful for the benevolent Party’s “preferential policies,” and radicalism Islamists who just “don’t get” the wonderful benefits of the new Chinese order under the People’s Party. So while acknowledging inter-regional conflicts, it’s also important seek out the different layers (as in a cake!) if you will, within the hierarchy.

Let me through an example out there, just for perspective’s sake. I’m from the US South. Some (not all, of course) Southerners I know who are very, shall we say, “racially opinionated” well tell a pretty raucous joke or too about a “Yank” or a “New Yorker.” And if a New Yorker walked into a bar and said something stupid, there may be a bar fight over the insults that are traded.

But Southern attitudes towards blacks, and, increasingly, Hispanics are of a WHOLE different caliber. Perceptions that jobs are “being stolen,” that blacks and Hispanics have a one-to-one correlation with impoverished neighborhoods, higher crime rates, etc., deeply influence how such individuals interact with not only blacks and Hispanics themselves, but with the government as voting citizens – nothing dramatic like an amendment banning gay marriage, but subtle things like voting where money goes for schools, or rezoning districts in ways that let privileged while people vote as a bloc.

The way Han people from different parts of China banter with each other is like a Yank and a redneck trading insults. The way Han people interact with Uyghurs is more of the sneering, “I hope the government does something to kick some sense into ‘these people'” variety.

Second, there’s far more that is and can be influenced by policy in the situation with the Uyghurs. A Han Chinese mayor may be annoyed that so many Cantonese people are coming to his city and getting into street fights. But because in the government’s eyes there’s no categorical difference between them and people from Guangdong there’s little that can be done policy wise to manifest an institutional response to “unwelcome Cantonese.” With Uyghurs, it’s far different. Several things can be targeted or threatened, like education, neighborhoods, language, religion. These things in fact ARE being targeted and threatened. Secondly, by being categorically different in the PRC minzu system, there is a rationale for different treatment. So they can do this really insiduous bartering with the devil where they give Uyghurs an extra baby or 50 points in the gaokao (which Han people LOVE to complain about. I’m serious. They literally get pleasure from complaining about this) while on less public channels they ban Uyghurs from mosques, deny them passports, and tear down their neighborhoods.

So the fact that there are far more tangible policy retaliations against Uyghurs, combined with point one, that racism against Uyghurs is of a higher level and is aligned with the ethnic group with more political power; this combination produces the *real* policy oppression we see today. So, as long as I’m an “acitivst” (hate how that’s a dirty word now) for the Uyghur cause, for all intents and purposes I do see Han “influence” in the XUAR as relatively monolithic, not as different if the Party Secretary is from Shandong or Hunan. If I were working in a human rights sphere somewhere inland then the distinction would be much more important.

Regards for your observations, though! I’m not trying to “contradict” what you’re saying, per se, just adding some perspectives on it. :)

kahraman on May 11th, 2010 at 7:11 am

I do agree that Han prejudice toward Uyghurs (and other minorities) is of another level. I should have specified. Han of various stripes have more in common with one another than with Uyghurs， who are largely the product of a different civilization. Its too bad that these things cannot be studied objectively and systematically in China though, or we could base that on more sound footing.

Likewise, I agree that policy can be influential in the case of the Uyghurs due to the for the reasons you mentioned in addition to the disproportionate amount of economic control exerted by the state in xinjiang. I suppose I wouldn’t consider Han influence monolithic in xinjiang, but that will require some further thinking on my part.

Porfiriy on May 11th, 2010 at 12:15 am

Hey Nadira,

Thanks for coming. I think it’s really important for the discussion on Uyghurs that’s occurring in the West (or online, in Western languages) has to have more perspectives and input from actual Uyghurs themselves.

As I’ve said before, one of the reasons Westeners tend to take up the cause for Uyghurs is because they simply can’t do it within the country themselves. And unlike the Tibetans, there isn’t a solid community outside of China that is a base for Uyghur activity; the Tibetans have Dharamsala, a sympathetic country hosting an entire community just across the border from Tibet. Uyghurs, on the other hand, though they have cultural cousins in Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan tend to be stifled by those governments since they’re interested in PRC aid. The closest thing Uyghurs have to Dharamsala is, funnily enough, Munich, Germany. But that’s too far.

The biggest downside of Western advocates for human rights is that it will always, without exception, elicit the “stop imposing your Western rights” on us from the Han, the government, and their sympathizers. It’s a BS argument, but it’s one they hold quite near and dear to their heart.

The best and obvious solution to this is to add more Uyghur voices to the discussion. I would love nothing more than that. Unfortunately, the PRC knows this and goes out of its way to stifle Uyghurs who “don’t know their place.” We see things like the closing of uighur.biz, jailing of dissidents like Ilham Tohti, writers like Nurmemet Yasin. We see banning of books like Almas Turghun’s Uyghurlar. And, delightfully, we see things like shutting down the entire Internet in Xinjiang for 8 months.

So bizning muzakirimizge qimmetlik gepliringizni qoshqanliqingizgha kop kop kop rehmet! Yene kelip biz bilen sohbetlishinigizni umid qilimen. :)

@Porfiriy,

You do need anger management. It will not help a bit by all the name calling, stucking your head in the sand, kicking and screaming.

You will not be able to create “Eastern Turkistn” inside China no matter how loud you are. Neither you nor I can change the reality. At least, I am humble enough to admit that.

Porfiriy on May 10th, 2010 at 8:33 pm

The “anger management” response is one of the tried and true cop-outs of the Internet. The use of shouting “too much rage!” or “look at this troll!” for people with indefensible arguments is, in fact, so widespread that at this point it can be pretty much taken as a signal flare for someone who has absolutely nothing to say.

In addition to that, it in and of itself is a disingenuous thing to say. It assumes some sort of equivalence between “keeping your cool” and “being right” on the one hand and “being angry” and “being wrong” on the other. That equivalence is false. If you think you’re great for “keeping your cool,” great, but what you really look like with such idiotic arguments is a cool-headed moron.

Finally, the cry of “anger management” is completely wrong in a discussion of social or activist issues. What can I say? The student activists who established the foundation for your freaking nation state in 1911 “needed anger management” too. It’s only dolts like you who think anger has no place in the social issues discourse, because you’re *afraid* of it.

Lastly, nowhere have I ever advocated an establishment of a separate nation in Xinjiang. My own social views of the area do not see that as a viable endgame. But it’s quite “Joyce” of you to 1) hurl a desperate accusation at an argument that doesn’t exist, a tactic we call “straw man” and 2) end with this gem of calling yourself “humble” in such a pious and self-advancing way that it ironically itself is completely void of any humility. If you can’t change reality, then why are you commenting on a blog? Anyone can read my posts and see that I’m interested in discussing *issues.* Legal provisions, policies, etc. If your view on the subject is so weak and unexamined that you have to stick to vague concepts like “utopianism” and “you can’t change reality” and one-liners from “The Idiots Guide to CCP Revisionist History,” then what you REALLY need to do is find a bunch of 14 year-old smoking put and discussion the philosophy of The Matrix because that’d be more suited to your (lack of) critical thinking and your vocabulary.

tez on May 17th, 2010 at 12:09 pm

I dont see anywhere in Porfiry’s posts where he tried to create an East Turkestan Joyce. As I’ve commented to you on other threads some of your statements are totally ill-founded and irresponsible.

The East Turkestan thing is just your fear it seems as you rave on about it all over the place. Do look into how the East Turkestan Republic leaders met their deaths in 1949 if you are so fixated on this idea. Also look at what was promised the “Uyghur” at the time and what they have now as a means of understanding their present dissatisfaction

@Porfiriy,

I am no politician and I will say it again; self determination is only possible when you have the power. That is the truth, right or wrong. The idealists of all eras have been outraged by the ill of the society, but the paradise is unattainable because of human nature and limited resources. I do not see empty ranting of “human rights” or “self determination” the pressing issues for mankind. Ever exploding population and dwindling resources are the culprits for all out chaos and miseries. Only the naïve believe 21st century is special and time to build a utopia.

For last two hundred years, human population has grown to 7 billions from 1 billion. It is amazing that most of the world is relatively peaceful. In this over-populated world, it is important to promote tolerance among people. It is unacceptable for Uyghur to massacre non Uyghur in Urumqi just because they thought it were theirs. Did you see the picture of South gate in 1910? It had nothing to do with Uyghur and it had nothing to do with PRC. Wait until going gets tougher, what kind of savage will Uyghur commit? Uyghur are all over China, why can’t non Uyghur “flood” Xijiang? With all the problems of PRC, I can tell you that half of Indian population is malnourished.

Your head has been screwed by something and you can deny all you want. You can deny Chinese civilization; the world knows China but Xinjiang only exists in your delusional mind. I am not seeing any country waging World War III with China to redraw the border, not anytime soon. Something has screwed your brain. You see no history or only the brief history you want to see. Border is not new and only nomads see no border. Why was Great Wall built over two thousand years ago? To prevent northern nomads from raiding the settlements.

Something is wrong with your brain. I tried to explain that Han is not ethnic; then you tried to make Han northern Chinese (central plain, origin of Hua Xia). You can check map of Han dynasty. Hello?! How many thousand years do you want go back to define Chinese now? From DNAs, the fraternal are related for the Northern and the Southern, but the maternal are different. It is interesting; especially they speak in different tongues.

You do need anger management.

Porfiriy on May 10th, 2010 at 8:25 pm

Joyce,

I have systematically and entirely dismantled your assertions that injustices and human rights violations in Xinjiang are acceptable due to some philosophical and airy “unattainability” of “utopia.” You have yet to respond to the fact that your own daily safety and protection from crime and abusive authorities, your access to amenities like electricity, power, and the Internet, all these things are due to an “idealistic” social contract between yourself and the authorities who manager the area you live, a social contract that you seem blithely ignorant of and go on yammering about this might is right bullcrap right as you enjoy amenities and protection that you didn’t earn yourself through “power.”

Second, your argumentation belies a laughably juvenile inability to see any sort of nuance between “utopia” (your word, not mine. I never said utopia in any of my posts) and a head-nodding acceptance of human rights abuses in places like Xinjiang. Since when is supporting human decency some sort of utopiaism? It’s not. Rather, you find it advantageous to apply outrageous labels to the words of people who disagree with you. It’s an argumentative strategy (though it hardly deserves the word “strategy”) that many of us discovered on the playgrounds of our elementary school. That live in such an elementary world and use such elementary approaches to justify atrocity is, of course, to be expected of someone as small-minded as you.

“You see no history or only the brief history you want to see. Border is not new and only nomads see no border. Why was Great Wall built over two thousand years ago? To prevent northern nomads from raiding the settlements.”

Unfortunately, you “see no history” [sic]. The “Great Wall” wasn’t built “over two thousand years ago.” It was built over a period of centuries, was extremely piecemeal, served multiple political and social purposes at different times, and famously was continuously incapable of serving as a border for whatever Sinic empire existed at the time either because Chinese individuals would build settlements on the north side of the wall-chunks to trade with nomads, or, more obviously throughout history, the quote “nomads” unquote would walk around it, bribe the so-called “Han-Chinese” general that manned it since he sympathized with the “nomads” more, or go over it with surprising ease. The “Wall”, which of course was a disjointed, fractured, and inconsistent project no more monolithic or united than “Han identity” itself (Han identity truly being the new “Great Wall of China”). Again, it is entirely and wonderfully illustrative if your stupidity that you would use a historical analogy that serves my point more than it does yours.

“I tried to explain that Han is not ethnic; then you tried to make Han northern Chinese (central plain, origin of Hua Xia). You can check map of Han dynasty.”

Hun, the Han dynasty broke up. It broke up spectacularly and violently and the southern kingdom that filled the void below the Yangzi afterward, the Wu, are still famously admired today by Southern “Han” Chinese people for their fierce cultural and linguistic independence from the north. My God, they were like their own Xinjiang, jeepers! That they are now loyal Han-zoids like you is less a tribute to the true reality of some unified Han identity and more a tribute to the real, consistent, and persistent educational system and cultural environment created and maintained by the government, one that is spectularly successful in creating an artificial identity that serves the interest of the state.

Denied. Again. This whole comment threat is littered with the hollow, smoking ruins of your recycled “The Party is Good” yammering.

joyce on May 13th, 2010 at 2:06 am

Yap all you want. Who said Han did not fall and Wu never existed? I have Shanghai and Guangdong friends here and none of us living in thousands of years ago, we are simply Chinese now.

Education has been in Hanzi since Han dynasty. Yes, Wu used Hanzi too and Manchu had to speak Chinese and write Chinese themselves to hold on the power. PRC did not do anything about the “Hanese” and I don’t get what you are barking at. When Han were losers, the history in the region was still written in Hanzi. Actually, Japanese and Korean got into it too.

You can hate Han all you want, we are here to stay and 1 billion plus. It is not wise to hate one fifth of the humanity. That will be too much hate and might cause you heart attack.

I don’t really read your posts anymore and just happened to see that paragraph. Better to stay away from a mad bull infected with mad cow.

kahraman on May 13th, 2010 at 5:44 am

I don’t think he hates the Han. Discussion is just not possible on this topic without a firm factual basis.

Just because Han Chinese are numerous does not mean a) their views are monolithic or b)they are necessarily correct because of their great number. Those are basic logical fallacies.

Porfiriy on May 13th, 2010 at 7:36 am

“Yap all you want. Who said Han did not fall and Wu never existed? I have Shanghai and Guangdong friends here and none of us living in thousands of years ago, we are simply Chinese now. ”

You did, you retard, when you described a continuous and unbroken Chinese polity. On one hand, you make an argument about the unbroken nature of Han identity and then on the other hand you say that you are not “living in thousands of years ago [sic].” My very point was the contemporaneous and artificial nature of Han identity. Thank you for once again verifying my point, you idiot. The fact that you and your Guangdong friends consider yourselves “Chinese” NOW demonstrates how it’s a modern construct, that because of its artificiality shouldn’t be used as some sort of ancient cultural club justified for use against the somehow less-ancient Uyghurs, and that if a unified “Han identity” didn’t exist before there’s no reason it’s definitely going to exist forever.

“Better to stay away from a mad bull infected with mad cow.”

What an idiot. Your posts speak for themselves.

She met EU human right commission.

How could she become the richest woman in China if Uyghur were institutionally discriminated? She popped out 11 kids under the draconian “One Child” policy. She was born in 1951 and she spoke fluently in her own language. “cultural genocide” seemed weak too. There were quite a few ethnicities living in Xinjiang, so Uyghur should not claim the land “Uyghur only”.

How about EU’s conclusion? It makes sense to me. You guys will probably say that EU does not want to upset the dragon. I checked “CIA Fact” two years ago, Korean Chinese were doing the best and Manchurian Chinese the second. That dismisses the claim that “Han Chauvinism” is prevalent in China.

Wow. How’d this thread slip under my radar. What an amazing string of comments, opinions and insights. And what a fiery topic.

Kahraman surely you know Chingiz Kaghan was also Chinese!!!!!!!

Joyce I think you need to study History a little more deeply.

Its anachronistic to say that Han – had a strong hold on the present Xinjiang during the Han dynasty. There were these troublesome guys running around called the Xiongnu. Not to mention Kushan control over the southern Tarim basin. Your ‘stronghold’ perception is exactly the product of present Han nationalist Historiography that some of the learned minds you challenge here have pointed to. Its also a mythic concept tied to such early Imperialists like Ban Chao- who if we have a close look at the records we can see wasnt such a nice guy, nor was his son. Professor Millward’s latest book gives a breakdown of the actual years both Han and Xiongnu ruled Xinjiang (see Eurasian Crossroads).

The Kushan control and the ethnic, linguistic linkages between them in Toharistan/ Bactria and back across the Tarim basin to the old Toharian lands in Gansu- yes Gansu – also represented a distinct cultural area at the time- there wasnt a border with PRC written over it near Tashkurgan.

To say Uighur werent around at the time is true but their descendants were, both as nomadic peoples and as sedentary Oasis Dwellers. Modern Uighur claim all of these as their ancestors, not just the Uighurs of the Orkhon Khanate. Many historical works written in Xinjiang by Uyghur are moreso centred on a history of place rather than ethnicity; and in fact the old Indo-European speaking oases dwellers are also ancestors of the modern Uyghur.

This argument befuddles Chinese and western academics as they little understand present Uyghur historical consciousness and try and tie the present Uyghur to the origin of their eponym in the Orkhon region of Mongolia. Rudelson and Gladney misled us with their discourses they created in this area; this idea also suits Chinese nationalist academics.

One should distinguish between the older ‘Uighur” and the present ‘Uyghur”. The Uighur were a confederacy – ” The Union” so to speak of Nine tribes and the leader of a larger confederacy of allied confederacies that also had inner confederate tribes. ‘Uighur’ – the “Union” was a general name for all under that greater Confederacy the central Uighur confederacy controlled. Many, many Turkic tribes were confederates of that group including Karluk Yaghma, Basmil etc.

The ToqquzOghuz and Toqquz Uighur are areas you should research Joyce before saying the Uighur werent in the area- they were all over it particularly the Zhungar depression and Turfan depression in the form of their ancestors- Turk and Xiongnu tribes; and there is also the fact that the latter were not solely Mongol-Turk in their ethnic composition.

The Uyghur can do something the Han can never do in Xinjiang that is claim a history of place, of residence by virtue of their many ethnic roots. Something the Han cannot do and would be loathe to do in Xinjiang as it would counter their myths of Chineseness.

I love it when Yakob Beg is pitched as a foreigner in Chinese historiography because he came from the Ferghana Valley 5 days away over the Tian Shan on horseback from Kashgar, while the Qing who had to march several thousand kilometres from their Imperial centre were somehow not foreigners.

By 1759 the Kashgarians had experienced an 800 year history of Islamic interaction with Ferghana and the oases of western Turkestan, commencing with the Karakhanids and the conversion of Satuk Bughra Khan ca. 926. Their realm as a ‘family possession’ included Kashgar and Ferghana and Bukhara and Tokmak and Issik Kul and Ili Valley, and Aksu and Kucha, and Yarkand and Samarkand, and Tashkent and…and…there was no sign on the passes leading out of Kashgar saying “PRC Border”.

In fact it wasnt until 1759 that the Qing arrived any where near there and yes they were Manchus though its doubtful their armies were. Han were under their control, and their governance was based moreso on their old Turco-Mongol system than previous Han ways of governance.

Qing possession after the so called 70 year ‘Pax Manjurica,’ beloved by sino-centric western and Chinese historians alike, was totally contested during the nineteenth century until the great Hunan Han Zou Zang Tang rocked onto the scene. He was an adherent of that Han chauvinist school that is still with us whether China presently denies it or not.

Yes China is a modern state and a modern idea and the so called “New Frontier Uyghur Autonomous Region” is ‘part’ of it, but please spare us all this crap about continuity and integrity of the borders of the sacred motherland that have existed as long as camels have farted in the Taklamakan.

I forgot to mention the seriously contested Tang era when Tibet also controlled the southern Tarim basin for roughly a 100 years. The Tang “Four Garrisons”- were exactly that- foreign outposts of an old Imperial power that spasmodically since the Han attempted to try and control non-Han regions outside of it own territory. A good comparative study is that of Vietnam and what is now Xinjiang. If the same logic is applied to Vietnam as to Xinjiang, then Vietnam too has always been an inseparable part of the Chinese Motherland. China was withstood in what is now northern Vietnam; in the eastern fringes of the old borderland historically known as Turkestan (see Frank Imart) it was luckier.

kahraman on May 21st, 2010 at 2:54 am

You were being facetious about Genghis Khan, right ? I am actually reading Empire of the Steppes right now.

Impressive historical overview on your part. It is much appreciated.

Joyce I missed this:

‘I checked “CIA Fact” two years ago, Korean Chinese were doing the best and Manchurian Chinese the second. That dismisses the claim that “Han Chauvinism” is prevalent in China.’

Q. Do you understand why that is?

A. Because they are the most thoroughly sinicized of the etnic nationalities.

Dont you understand this?

Thus they are a bad example for the point you are trying to make/ convince us with.

Uyghurs and Tibetans are extremly difficult to shape in this way because their cultural and religious identities are so strong.

In particular the Islamic roots of the Uyghurs set them against infidels of all nationalities.

This should be understood; nor are they Chinese speaking like the Hui.

Uyghur should be understood in their own specific and unique category in China and not compared to the other minorities.

This is also a western academic approach which bears little real fruit other than creating endless labrynthine discourses about ethnicity and identity that academics earn a living from. The latter are esteemed as knowledgeable and insightful when in fact they really understand very little of the Uyghur mindset or refuse to accept how Uyghur feel about themselves and who they are as Muslims.

Joyce I admire your energy. But again your R’s”popped out” children you once agin display your ignorance and are perhaps basing everything on your Notheast paradigm:

“How could she become the richest woman in China if Uyghur were institutionally discriminated? She popped out 11 kids under the draconian “One Child” policy. She was born in 1951 and she spoke fluently in her own language. “cultural genocide” seemed weak too. There were quite a few ethnicities living in Xinjiang, so Uyghur should not claim the land “Uyghur only”

1951 was 1951- 2010 is 2010.

When she birthed her children the One Child Policy was not in place in Xinjiang when it came to minorities. In early 1990’s

policy cahnged when minorities they were allowed 3 chidren in the countryside and two in the cities. She has also been married a few times . Da!

The older child policy was fair on the minorities and I believe implemented in the understanding of the overwhelming numbers of Han in the multi-national nation. This has all been jettisoned and the Uyghur are now forced away from their traditional large families and facing massive unchecked Han in-migration to their Autonomous Region, feel swamped and faced with being totally pushed to the corners of a “Han Xinjinag”- this is cultural genocide if you care to consult the UN definition. You do respect such international conventions I would trust?

I agree with you Chinese Nationalist. Xinjiang was just a frontier before assimilation during the Qing. Xinjiang will become sinicized whether the Uyghurs like it or not. The heavy military presence Xinjiang insures that it will not break way.

Check out this interesting article on how the Chinese cities are named. More to follow in this series.

http://mychinesenotebook.blogspot.com/2011/07/chinese-city-names-and-their-meanings.html

Could we get a link to the article you cite/translated?

@Tez

There was no independent Uyghur state conquered in 1759.

The Chagatai Muslim Khaganate in the Tarim Basin was conquered by Buddhist Oirat Dzungars from Dzungaria in 1680.

the Uyghurs like Emin Khoja from the former Chagatai khanate then started begging the Qing to liberate them from Dzungar rule.

The Qing defeated the Dzungars and conquered the entire Tarim Basin and Dzungaria from them by 1759.

The Manchu Qing Emperor deliberately mass settled Han and Hui in Dzungaria, directly Han settlement to former Dzungar areas like Urumqi and the rest of Dzungaria immediately after 1759.

Uyghurs are also aliens and settlers in Dzungaria and not native there. “Urumqi” is a name from the Dzungar language. There are no Uyghur Mosques or Bazaars in Dzungaria which are older than Qing rule there because they aren’t native there. Name any Uyghur Mosque or Bazaar in Urumqi before 1759. Oops you can’t.

The Uyghur Muslims of the Tarim Basin are descendatns of Karluk speaking Kara Khanid Muslims who conquered the Tarim Basin from the Buddhist Sakas through Jihad. They wrote poems about destroying Buddhist status and defecating on them as they completed their conquests and still celebrate at the tombs of the Imams and Khans who initiated the Jihads.

Southern China was mass settled by Han people and modern Southern Chinese speech is closer to Old Chinese than northern Chinese. The indigenous peoples of Southern China were the Baiyue who today are minorities like the Zhuang, Miao, and Yao. Modern Han don’t even care about the Wu Kingdom (and the Kings of Wu originated from northern China). Its hilarious how Porfiriy doesn’t know jack about either Dzungars, Southern Han or Manchus yet seems to presume to speak on their behalf.

The idea of “Zhongguo” as a multi ethnic state was invented by the MANCHU Qing. The MANCHU qing invented the term “中國之人” Zhōngguó zhī rén to refer to ALL ethnicities of China including themselves, before the idea of “Zhonghua Minzu” and the importation of European ideas. The Qing said that Xinjiang, Tibet and Mongolia were all part of 中國 and the Qing directly referred to their own state including the Manchu homeland as 中國 (Dulimbai Gurun) in the 1689 Treaty of Nerchinsk with Russia.

The only thing that was importated from the outside is “Porfiriy”‘s arrogance in trying to speak on behalf of Manchus.