Analyzing Xinjiang’s Ban of the Internet
According to the New York Times, the last 10 months have set a record for “the longest and most widespread [blockage] in China since the Internet became readily available throughout the country a decade ago”. The next paragraph of this article goes on to talk about how many Xinjiang residents apparently played hooky from school and work to spend time catching up on months-worth of unread emails and online gaming.
Most everybody I know says they went to work last Friday, but all of them readily admit they’ve been glued to the computer for the remainder of the weekend. Contrary to what I had predicted, all forms of communication available to the rest of China are now available in Xinjiang including Skype, all email clients (Gmail, Yahoo, Hotmail, etc.) and international news.
Now that this dark chapter in Xinjiang’s history is behind us, I would like to take a step back and quickly analyze what effects – both good and bad – have resulted from this blockage and what China and the rest of the world should learn from this.
Blocking the Internet Was a Good Idea
Having lived through the frustration of this internet block, it’s difficult for me to see the “good” in it, but please allow me a try.
Imagine that two kids are fighting over a toy. Usually the situation involves loud screaming and wild tempers, all to gain control of an object neither of them really care for yet both don’t want to see in the others possession.
As an adult, my first reaction would be to just take the toy away and throw it out the window. Problem solved. There’s no more fighting and, more importantly, I have peace and quiet.
Obviously this analogy can only run so far, but I get the feeling that this is what happened in Xinjiang. For lack of any better solution it was decided that the internet would just have to be thrown out the window to stop the fighting.
Some people would probably say that this blockage saved the lives of many people, both Han and Uyghur, who might have used the internet to organize large-scale retaliations (at least, bigger than the ones that did occur). In a point well-argued by Kaiser Kuo, the irony of the internet is that instead of bringing the world closer together it has actually made us “even more fractured and tribal”.
Doing away with the internet effectively minimizes the threat to the people of Xinjiang by getting rid of the problem altogether. If even one life was saved then it was worth it.
Blocking the Internet was a Bad Idea
Of course that’s all fine and dandy if the internet is the root problem. No evidence has been presented to suggest that the internet had anything to do with the riots in July. Immediately following the internet shut down we residents were given no indication of why or how long it would last.
Even if the internet did play a minor role in facilitating hateful communication, that still ignores the point that there was hatred to begin with. I see this all the time in my comments sections and sadly it goes both ways. Either “all Uyghurs” are evil or “the whole of China” is corrupt and deceitful.
I didn’t recognize it at the time, but the fact is that the tension in Xinjiang was not started by the internet and, as Xinjiang’s history of riots shows, indeed does not need the internet to spill over into action.
I’ve said this over and over again: the #1 worst side effect of the internet block was the powerful rumor. Since nobody could find out what was going on everyone had to rely on rumors to stay up-to-date. No official government communication kept us informed of what was happening and what was being done to stop it. All we saw were truckloads of police marching up and down the streets.
The internet block was effective in isolating Xinjiang, promoting both fear and distrust between neighbors and friends.
What Should We Learn from This?
I hope that this period in Xinjiang’s history serves as a good case study for China and the rest of the world. There’s no way to rewind time to find out what would have happened had the internet never been cut so we are left to speculate the wisdom of this decision.
I believe that the answer to the following questions will determine how we look back on this choice:
- How did this affect Xinjiang economically? (recent billion-dollar investment announcements suggest Xinjiang hasn’t fared well)
- Is the Uyghur/Han relationship better because of this block?
- Will China view this tactic as successful and therefore use it again?
- Because a majority of Xinjiang’s residents don’t have access to the internet anyway, is this really an effective case study?
Your Thoughts
I would like to open up this thread to your thoughts, especially those who have experienced this block first-hand. What do you think we should take away from this ordeal?
Hopefully you realize that by arguing that the Internet can aggravate differences I wasn’t suggesting that shutting the thing down was a good idea! My two cents: I could be persuaded that the initial clampdown probably did save lives, as rumors would have flown around wildly. I would also entertain the idea that cracking down on electronic communications in the ensuing days could have prevented pogroms against Uyghur people living in other cities of China. But by all accounts things had calmed down considerably by the end of the summer, and it would be hard to convince me that the Internet ban needed to go on for so damned long.
[Reply]
Josh on May 17th, 2010 at 1:19 pm
Forgive me for implying any opinions on your part! I have enjoyed your analysis of the divide that separates internet users in both China and the West and I wanted to stretch that a bit to cover a similar divide between Han and Uyghur.
I wholeheartedly agree with you and I think the general feeling in Xinjiang after the riots was a patient understanding of what was happening despite the government’s lack of communication. It was only after the weeks turned into months that people really began to get frustrated.
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kahraman on May 17th, 2010 at 1:24 pm
Alas! If only someone in a knowledgable position could present the evidence to persuade you (and me and many others)
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Well, nice try. But this sentence “No evidence has been presented to suggest that the internet had anything to do with the riots in July.” is not well-researched.
In face, several Uyghur sites had no shortage of hate speech in the days before the riot. While some rational voices were trying to calm down people, more are saying things “I am ready to kill some Hans and sacrifice my life.” Certainly, the Internet had much to do with the July riot, let alone the initial demonstration was organized online.
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Josh on May 17th, 2010 at 1:02 pm
I am more than willing to hear you out on that evidence. Please provide a URL, either in this thread or by email, linking to these organized hate forums. China may have blocked them, but it would have hurt their case to delete them.
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kahraman on May 17th, 2010 at 1:17 pm
Bingo! These claims can’t be verified and thus, skepticism is justified. If Leong speaks fluent Uyghur and/or the URLs can be found I would consider changing my opinion.
leong on May 17th, 2010 at 3:31 pm
Well, you are right that those sites are still being blocked. If they were to reopen, those postings would have been deleted. But here are my sources:
1. I have seen some of those comments by myself.
2. A CCTV documentary on 7/5 shows several screen captures, in Uyghur. I will try to find that URL.
3. The most thorough investigation of so far, please see James Millward’s article “Introduction: Does the 2009 Urumchi violence mark a turning point?” in Central Asian Survey, March, 2010.
4. Another article is coming out on International Journal of Communication comparing Urumqi riot and Iran demonstration.
damo on May 19th, 2010 at 7:15 am
This group here in Australia openly push for East Turkestan.
Some of the lies they spread are quite alarming.
damo on May 19th, 2010 at 7:19 am
http://uyghuraustralia.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general
Before we start evaluating the impact of the Internet blockade, first we have to be clear about the rationale or the motivation behind it.
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kahraman on May 17th, 2010 at 1:08 pm
Unfortunately, there will likely never be a government explanation other than the one already provided. It would be fantastic to know how the original decision was made, along with decisions about the timing of the blackout, the exceptions to it among other things. However, I doubt the minutes to those meetings will ever be public. All that is left to do is to evaluate the impact on Xinjiang.
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Josh on May 17th, 2010 at 1:09 pm
Ok…? I feel like that comment ended before it was finished. Would a particular motivation or rationale actually change the impact?
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tez on May 17th, 2010 at 2:02 pm
Those links would be a case in point Leong. Do you still have access to them? Or is it just what you have heard?
leong on May 17th, 2010 at 3:35 pm
The motivation determines how we see the impact. For example, if it is out of the WLQ’s fear of popular anger, apparently the ban was successful because nothing came out and reached Beijing.
kahraman on May 18th, 2010 at 7:49 am
Analysing the social/economic impact is a different thing than evauating whether the ban was successful by the government’s policy objectives. Whether the govt. judges it a success or not, there was still a real impact on the people of xinjiang, among others.
leong on May 18th, 2010 at 9:23 am
Hi, Kahraman, one of Josh’s questions is “Will China view this tactic as successful and therefore use it again?”
Good pro and con overview.
Regarding the economy, I found this report on the regional economy at the xinjiang statistical bureau website (in chinese):
http://www.xjtj.gov.cn/stats_info/tjgb/201049110641.htm
It seems to suggest that trade was hit rather hard last year, contracting by 37.8%. This makes sense given the international call and internet restrictions and apprehension about safety, policy changes etc. among foreigners. Several other figures contracted notably as well, including real estate investment (i doubt people are flocking to xinjiang to by homes now), and local government budgetary income. Based on this data though, it seems as though economic activity merely slowed. Without more data clear it is hard to tease out causes and unfortunately all the data on their site is password protected.
Regarding Uyghur Han relations, it seems difficult to tell what the effect will be. All ethnic groups were be affected and were likely equally irritated. The devil may be in the details trickling out about the shape of the new Xinjiang internet. For instance I noticed two popular Uyghur sites, diyarim and xabnam seemed to have been closed permanently. In any event it the block still did nothing to address more serious underlying social tensions.
Number 3 is an excellent question….although policing internet content is more of a govt priority, I think the internet is so entrenched in more developed parts of China that there is no way the govt. would risk this. tibet and xinjiang seem the most likely candidates
I imagine most Xinjiang residents have access to the internet somehow(at least now). Although xinhua claims there are 7 million users (a minority), information gleaned off the internet can be transmitted in other ways, and thereby affect society in different ways. In this way I think it is an interesting case. There is also the fact that its entirely unique and the only case study. Not that anyone without ccp membership will likely be allowed to ever study it…..
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damo on May 17th, 2010 at 2:16 pm
Real estate prices in certain parts of Xinjiang increased dramatically after the riots and continue to rise.
“i doubt people are flocking to xinjiang to by homes now”
Not sure on this one.The government has announced massive spending program for the region so I would not be surprised to see people heading to Xinjiang to take advantage of this.
But I do know people from other parts of China that are extremely wary of Xinjiang even before July 2009.
I think you might find that there are alot of people in Xinjiang that don’t/never had internet access.
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kahraman on May 18th, 2010 at 7:42 am
In the long term you may be right about real estate in xinjiang but 2009 showed quite a slow down, from growth in the 30% range to 1% growth. In the previous few years growth was rather robust (over 35% in 2007 and 2008). We’ll have to see if any policies designed to spur migration or investment come out of the xinjiang work conference. While neidi ren might have been wary of xinjiang someone had to be driving those price increases.
In my time in Xinjiang, I found internet cafes readily accessible everywhere. I believe most people in China access the internet that way as opposed to connections at home. So its hard to say people couldn’t have internet access if all they have to do is walk down the street to an internet cafe. (remote oases and mountain town notwithstanding)
tez on May 18th, 2010 at 11:06 am
Kahraman when I was last in the Autonomous Region it was clear to me right across the region, even in the southern oases that a main factor driving Han immigration investment, and “development” was the real estate market. Farm lads were being sold off, and appartments built everywhere, in what were once thriving Uyghur quarters. The town of Keriya is a good example. I sided along side and old man in that town walking through an area that still retained its character and way of life. He noticed my interest in the place and turned to me and said proudly with a tone of desperation and foreboding: “buzulmighan yar”! Basically: “this spot has not been destroyed”.
kahraman on May 19th, 2010 at 1:39 pm
I think you mean that Han immigration was partly driving real estate investment. Real estate development wouldn’t take place if there was no one to purchase the space. (presumably Han in migration into Xinjiang is increasing that demand for real estate) These are aggregate figures for the whole of Xinjiang, with no further parsing of data. I didn’t mean for my citation to be a comment on the pattern of real estate development in Xinjiang, only as as means of putting some figures on the effect of the riots and the communication blackout on the XJ economy.
tez on May 19th, 2010 at 2:27 pm
Re: “I didn’t mean for my citation to be a comment on the pattern of real estate development in Xinjiang, only as as means of putting some figures on the effect of the riots and the communication blackout on the XJ economy.”
Yes, I know; but definitely this pattern is a result of the real estate market and speculation. In short a lot of people are trying to make money out of it. That said, certain Uyghur are also in on this and making it big, but they are not a large sector of the U community.
The late Kurban Kurash’s song “Dont Sell Your Land” was aimed at waking people up and to fend off the allure of short term profits, and keep ancestral lands in Uyghur hands.
The state, still the largest land owner is proactive in selling the lands off it can under its various administrative bodies down to the county level.
Land Boom – Riot or no Riot- it will go on to the detriment of the Uyghur no matter what, it seems.
Profits for state and speculators. More apartment complexes for Han immigrants.
Would there like elsewhere in the world when developers and state bodies collude be any corruption evident here?
Any figures or facts concerning the renovation of Kashgar’s Old City?
Be interesting to see who is making all of the money out of that controversial development project.
kahraman on May 20th, 2010 at 12:37 am
I still think you are somewhat misunderstaning my point and possibly some economic concepts (i have studied econ extensively, so forgive my impatience). The real estate market is the pattern.
It is most likely true that a) This pattern is largely benefitting Han over other minorities, certainly in Urumqi b) local govts. throughout China sell land to raise revenue (corruption is inherent in this process) c) China perceives speculation on real estate and the potentially resulting bubble to be a major problem (anecdotally, I was amazed at the amount of empty buildings and new construction in central Urumqi- amazing) d)Demolition of Kashgar’s old city is likely a pretext for other aims and has not taken account of local residents’ concerns.
No country publishes figures on investment by race or ethniciity so it is difficult to make an overall judgement for sure. based on personal observation though, I would largely agree with you.
By the way, do you have more info on “don’t sell your land” and Kurban Kurash (his background and/or the lyrics)?
tez on May 20th, 2010 at 2:47 pm
I totally agree with everything you say here Kahraman. I dont think I am misunderstanding you. My detour into southern Xinjiang I guess was somewhat tangential but no where near as askew as some of the tangents we have experienced here and Im sure you know what I mean. I think your main point was in relation to the internet black out and land prices; I did diverge from this focus but am in concord with all your points listed above.
I wrote the above on the run the other day its “Sultan Kurax,” he was also known as “Kuresh Kusan” he died exiled in Sweden, 2006.
Bio:
http://www.kurashsultan.com/?page_id=288
Bio: with some of his lyrics to that song in mention and an article on Uyghur modern music by Rachel Harris:
http://www.uyghurensemble.co.uk/en-html/research-article2.html
His funeral ceremony:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWLKWCT6thM
I had a link to the lyrics of that song from a few years ago in bookmarks but it seems to have been moved. Just a few weeks ago I watched an exceptionally powerful performance of his “Watan” ( Motherland) in the U.S. on youtube but as things are on that channel, it seem to have been moved since. Hope this is a help. See what you can track down.
tez on May 20th, 2010 at 3:05 pm
I just found this. It is not the exact video I mentioned above but seems to include footage of the same performance with Kurax’s masterful playing of the Dutar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inlalbBf7c0&feature=related
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Thanks Leong re:
“A CCTV documentary on 7/5 shows several screen captures, in Uyghur. I will try to find that URL.”
be good if you can find that.
Unless those comments are able to be read though they could say anything, and would fit into the CCP version that the riots were instigated by “outside forces”.
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leong on May 17th, 2010 at 10:48 pm
It’s here:
http://news.cctv.com/china/20091015/104748.shtml
This is the only documentary from the state TV on the riot. The video does point fingers to “outside forces” and focusing on the Internet and Urumqi, but one important aspect is missing: why there were so many (or most) rioters from southern Xinjiang.
I take that the “outside forces” is more of an excuse to cover up local government’s inability and failure than a real explanation. One year after 7/5, many people here in Urumqi refuse to the accept that accusation, while so many questions remain unanswered.
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tez on May 18th, 2010 at 1:35 am
Thanks for that link Leong.
The Uyghur from southern Xinjiang you speak about were mainly from a certain village near Khotan (Hetian). They were in Urumqi in the southern suburbs as economic opportunists like many Han who come to Urumqi. Their poverty and lack of opportunity and perhaps disorientation in a Han dominated city would no doubt make them an element easily roused to mob action. I dont think you need look further than this. Southern Urumqi has been full of these Uyghur migrants for years living in shanty towns near the railway station and the infamous Hei Shan area north east of Er dai Qiao.
Thanks for your end comment too, thats a really interesting insight from a local on the spot, thanks.
leong on May 18th, 2010 at 10:38 am
Hi, Tez,
You are totally right. Given many of those southerners have been in the city for over a decade, my question is what makes them fail to integrate into Urumqi life? It is true that desperate people tend to rebel, but what if they did get better business opportunities and buy houses and marry local girls?
You are right that Hei Jia Shan, Da Wan, Sai Ma Chang are full of those shanty towns. People living in those areas lack stable jobs and live only on leasing their houses, usually one room for 100Yuan a month. The tenants are usually people from southern Xinjiang seeking better life in Urumqi, but always fail. This is a vicious cycle.
tez on May 18th, 2010 at 10:55 am
Yes Leong and its clear that Sai Ma Chang was the site of some of the worst violence.
Re: “my question is what makes them fail to integrate into Urumqi life? ”
Yes this is the BIG question
and yes it is a vicious cycle.
oh dear!
joyce on May 19th, 2010 at 10:09 pm
There are shanty towns everywhere on outskirts of large cities, including Beijing. The migrants searching for better life will usually go back to where they come from if there is nothing better for them.
The economic condition alone can not explain the level of hatred. They are fed with the false history made up by Uyghur outside China. The region was dominated by Mongols even before Qing took over. Northern Xinjiang was not Uyghur before PRC either. Urumqi was 65% Han and 12% Uyghur in 1949 and it has never been Uyghur town. If they do not like the city, they should go back to where they come from.
Before the riot, a Uyghur in Australia put a video of “honor killing” in Mosul on Uyghur site and claimed that a Uyghur girl was stoned to death by Han. If it is free to download false info and call for revenge, there might be a lot of more violence and more hatred. I do not see Uyghur will get anything good out it. There are limits for freedom of speech in America too.
Open internet is the best way to educate Uyghur to learn the meaning of share. They need to understand they have to share XJ with other ethnic people.
Uyghurs need to be informed that they are very fortunate to live under Chinese rule. If they were in America, they could all be killed by white settlers before 1884.
Or they will have to live in Uyghur reserves somewhere in the desert.
They are very fortunate to live side by side with other people. Feeling squeezed? Welcome to this crowded world. Have a little birth control.
Killing innocent people won’t resolve that. Not in China.
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Josh on May 18th, 2010 at 12:44 am
Thank you, Frank, for that very useful comment. I’ll pass it along to all my Uyghur friends.
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tez on May 18th, 2010 at 2:39 pm
Why this perpetual comparison of America with China?
Is this now the dominant global binary?
Why should China compare itself with America?
Why frank when any one remotely points to something slightly negative in regard China outside the all is “hao hao” paradigm do you immediately jump to criticizing America?
It always astounds me.
Do you live in America?
Frank China is China as you no doubt would agree. There is no point in comparing its situation to America constantly when you perhaps feel guilt over the way it mistreat its “Indians”.
The comparisons, no matter how applicable they may be do not justify wrong doing by any agent in the present based on that precedent.
America is not the “West” and there are many people apart from Americans who hold similar views in regard the Uyghur.
How about a little reflexive analysis, a little introspection perhaps, instead of always rushing to vindicate China by pointing out America’s mistakes over a century ago.
People just see you as either very desperate or very threatened when you make such statements. Lets talk about China now and the Uyghurs now without anachronistic comparisons.
joyce on May 18th, 2010 at 10:12 pm
@tez,
I am living in America, one of richest countries in the world and the minority problem is still not solved. After segregation, the better off blacks moved away from black communities and the black ghettos are still poor and dangerous. In Chicago area, there are already almost 200 murders this year and some people even called for national guards to restore the order.
China by no standard is an example of discriminations against minorities. There are minority groups doing well in China. China is not rich and there are hundreds of millions people are still very poor. It irks me a lot why anyone should be well taken care of just because of the minority statue; and the concept is very unjust itself.
Turkey has not been treating its own minority well. Kurds were used to be beaten up to speak their language, but Uyghur consider bilingual education cultural genocide. Some Uyghur think that they should be guaranteed good jobs if they learn Chinese. No language on earth can guarantee good jobs and their attitudes counter how much they are discriminated. Forced assimilation was even tried by Europeans and it is completely acceptable for voluntary assimilation anywhere on earth.
joyce on May 18th, 2010 at 10:15 pm
@tez,
Everything is relative and nothing is absolute. Comparison is legitimate to decide good or bad; just like that motion is decided by reference.
I am living in America, one of richest countries in the world and the minority problem is still not solved. After segregation, the better off blacks moved away from black communities and the black ghettos are still poor and dangerous. In Chicago area, there are already almost 200 murders this year and some people even called for national guards to restore the order.
China by no standard is an example of discriminations against minorities. There are minority groups doing well in China. China is not rich and there are hundreds of millions people are still very poor. It irks me a lot why anyone should be well taken care of just because of the minority statue; and the concept is very unjust itself.
Turkey has not been treating its own minority well. Kurds were used to be beaten up to speak their language, but Uyghur consider bilingual education cultural genocide. Some Uyghur think that they should be guaranteed good jobs if they learn Chinese. No language on earth can guarantee good jobs and their attitudes counter how much they are discriminated. Forced assimilation was even tried by Europeans and it is completely acceptable for voluntary assimilation anywhere on earth.
Josh on May 18th, 2010 at 11:40 pm
I welcome your comments and ideas, Joyce, but I want to respectfully point out that the phrase “Everything is relative and nothing is absolute” contradicts itself.
Besides the ironic way in which it is an absolute statement, it can also be used to justify absolutely any action at any time. You have to be able to draw a line of right and wrong in the sand or else people will move it wherever it best suits their needs.
Making comparisons may effectively shed light on a previous wrong, but if you begin to imply that it justifies a current wrong then you’re going to find yourself on a very slippery slope.
I’m not defending the actions of America or any other country with minority problems (which is most of them), but please use a different argument other than the absolute phrase “nothing is absolute”.
joyce on May 19th, 2010 at 2:00 am
@josh,
But Josh, you completely ignored that my comments were about the reality of America now. Lighter African Americans even discriminate against the darker ones. The government can only deinstitutionalize discriminations which PCR never had, and it will take time and effort for social reforms even in the rich country. It was caught on tape recently that cops were beating up a Mexican American and using racial slurs. Even young children are far from color blinded in the CNN report.
In LA riot, Koreans were targets of Blacks and Hispanics but Koreans were armed doing business in the high risk area. One Korean was burned to death in the arson. In the end the ghetto is still a ghetto and Koreans went to the new booming Asian town. In some black communities, it is hard to eat healthy because there are no grocery stores in reasonable distance.
I am just trying to say that violence will not solve the problem. Both sides have to honestly examine the situation and both sides have to improve to reduce the tension. Killing everyone not Uyghur in street can only worsen the problem and even go into complete segregation, self imposed.
The Uyghur activists should stop blaming every problem on Han, like their higher HIV infections. Uyghur should take bilingual education as the opportunity not threat. The government in Xinjiang should hire local people as much as possible. I do not see the language alone is the real problem but the hate can be a big problem. I am sure that a unit of Uyghur without Mandarin can be organized with a boss fluent in both languages. Uyghur inside and outside China should stop inciting hate which getting most majority of Uyghur nowhere.
Most ethnicities in the world have no state named their own. There is nothing to be shamed about that. They can be proud Uyghur inside China. There are as many Koreans in northern China as Uyghur and they are doing better than Han as a group. I do not believe that China is more racism than anywhere else, at least no data to support that.
All this rationalization is nojenta…
«Over the past nine months, 10 million people have been living blindfolded, deaf, and silent.
Here exists not only an ethnic segregation, but also a hostility towards technology.
I am ashamed that this kind of backward policy is being implemented in my country in the 21st century.
In my view, the internet blockage is similar to radical groups burning books and demolishing historical relics.
Maybe this is more backward than that even. The government is asking people in other Chinese cities not to say too much, but it is asking for complete silence from Uyghurs.»
Sun Wenguang RFA interview
[Reply]
Thanks for your balanced opinions, Josh.
As for: No official government communication kept us informed of what was happening and what was being done to stop it.
While this is unfortunate I think it was a lose-lose situation for the government. I’m not an apologist for the CCP, but I understand the rationale. People would decry any announcements as a white-wash. Announcements would be criticized as much as silence. Of course, this didn’t help the people, like you, in the thick of it.
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Josh on May 18th, 2010 at 10:09 am
That’s a good point Steve, and I understand exactly what you’re saying. Most everything surrounding the riots in 2009 was a lose-lose for the government and for the people of Xinjiang.
Criticism or not, though, I still believe that announcements would have been better than silence. I think I might compare it to being put on hold when calling customer service. Obviously that recorded voice telling me “Your call is important to us, you will be connected to the next available representative” doesn’t carry much weight, but if instead of the voice there was only silence…
…you’d wonder if anybody was even there. That’s how I felt, I think. I wondered if they even had a clue what was going on, and I think that’s part of why fear was at such a high point immediately after the riots.
Just my thoughts. Hindsight is always 20/20 and as you say, it would have been lose-lose anyway.
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Excuse me posting this article as is. I couldnt get through to the site via the link – it was being difficult. I think this is an important article on topic; but admin if you find it too long and wish for it to be deleted thats also, fine, cheers.
Sydney Morning Herald
May 17, 2010 Monday
First Edition
John Garnaut
Ilham Tohti has paid a price for speaking out on his homeland, writes John Garnaut in Beijing.
THE status of being China’s leading Uighur intellectual does not come without personal cost.
Ilham Tohti’s first wife left nine years ago because she could not bear it.
“When she heard the sirens of fire engines or ambulances she would get hysterical,” he says.
And his second wife recently moved from Beijing back to Atush, in southern Xinjiang. “My child was just born on March 15 and I haven’t met him yet.”
Asked if Ministry of State Security agents still visit his university apartment, he hesitates.
“Each time I answer that question it gets worse,” he says, pointing to tell-tale signs of tampering with the express post envelope that has just arrived.
But those agents have at least moved out of his living room, where they had kept him under “bedroom arrest” after he was returned from extra-legal detention last July.
Most intellectuals in China are given space to research and even critique government policies, within lim-its. But many freedoms that apply elsewhere do not extend to far-west Xinjiang.
The 40-year-old Uighur economist at Minzu [Nationalities] University in Beijing was bracketed in the same category as the exiled Uighur leader Rebiya Kadeer, when nearly 200 people were slaughtered in Uighur rampages last year.
“On July 5, Rebiya made an international phone call to carry out incitement, and websites such as Uyg-hur Online … continued to make inflammatory propaganda and spread rumours,” the Governor, Nur Bekri, announced on Xinjiang television, referring to Mr Tohti’s website. State Security took Mr Tohti away the fol-lowing day and returned him three weeks later.
Information on Mr Tohti’s website was seen as deeply subversive by leaders such as Mr Bekri and the then Communist Party boss Wang Lequan, who were accustomed to running Xinjiang as a personal fiefdom without their propaganda being challenged.
The region is adorned with posters and red banners claiming that all ethnic minorities coexist in harmony – despite the recent bloodshed and military-style fortification. Any troubles, says the traditional official line, stem from separatists and hostile foreign forces.
Mr Tohti continues to challenge government claims in his popular weekly lectures, which are quickly dis-seminated through China’s Uighurs and downloaded onto MP3 players.
He debunks the myth that Xinjiang is poor, pointing out that it has been growing faster than the national average and now ranks around the middle of the provincial GDP charts.
The disparities that matter, he says, are between the poor rural areas where Uighurs live and the urban areas, which are dominated by Han Chinese.
He tells how Uighurs are denied passports and therefore cut out of the trade routes into central Asia which they traditionally dominated. And how they find it impossible to break into the informal “guanxi” net-works that underpin private and state business dealings across Han China.
“Uighurs have no middle class, no business people, no listed companies,” he says. “This is not simply an issue of economics, but politics.”
The state looms much larger in Xinjiang than elsewhere in China – including in the resources sector, which accounts for two-thirds of GDP growth – and state agencies are dominated by Han Chinese.
In 2008 Mr Tohti surveyed 30 state work units in Urumqi and found fewer than 7 per cent of employees belonged to Uighur and other ethnic minorities.
“They publicly boast that 51 per cent of public servants are ethnic minorities, which is certainly a lie,” he says. “What made us angry was job ads on government websites stressed that priority would be given to Han Chinese.”
That is why Mr Tohti says he is not yet convinced by what officials have touted as an unprecedented, top-to-bottom review of Xinjiang policy due to be held within a fortnight, and which will include a huge new economic development package.
Xinjiang’s rapid growth “has nothing to do with us”, he says. “The funds are from outside, the talent and labour is from outside, the plans and impetus are all from outside and the resources are … all exported to markets outside Xinjiang.”
He does, however, welcome the replacement of Mr Wang, the Xinjiang party boss, with one of the party’s rising stars, the former boss of Hunan province.
“I have high expectations of Zhang Chunxian,” he says. “He says he respects law and is close to ordi-nary people and I am interested in whether he will unblock the Xinjiang internet or reduce Xinjiang media controls to Hunan levels.”
On Friday, after Mr Tohti spoke, Xinjiang authorities said full internet services had indeed been restored for the first time since July.
But giving Xinjiang similar rights to the rest of China is not the same as understanding Uighur problems.
“Xinjiang is not Hunan and Xinjiangers are not Hunanese,” Mr Tohti says.
“No matter how an official dances, he will dance with the red flag on his feet.”
[Reply]
tez on May 19th, 2010 at 9:56 am
http://www.associatedreportonline.com/china-wants-to-rid-the-internet-of-hostile-foreign-forces/026
[Reply]
joyce on May 19th, 2010 at 10:42 pm
The info control can be good for peace. Uyghur governor of Xinjiang said that they had a lot videos of killings in the riot. They could not release them because they could make a lot of people go crazy. Besides killing, the face of a young woman was slit open from ear to ear. Very heinous, indeed, and very different from men beating on men they thought the rapists.
kahraman on May 20th, 2010 at 12:54 am
How do you know information control could be good for peace? No channels of communication could also mean the real story never gets out and fear and rumors fill that void, leading to more problems down the line. If people really want to see those videos, they could ‘climb the wall’ and do so now.
And once again, there is no distinction between types of murder. It is always wrong.
joyce on May 20th, 2010 at 1:02 pm
The videos he talked about have never been online, no it should be. Those were definitely crucial for hunting down the murders. Fighting in Guangdong killed two, the riot in Xinjiang killed 200. Uyghur were more efficient murders, how about that?
The bodies of Uyghur were flown back to Xinjiang by the government, and poor Han could not even be buried and they had to be cremated. Han have fewer rights in China and being Han is not special at all.
kahraman on May 21st, 2010 at 1:05 am
The videos spoken of are most definitely on the internet, both for Shaoguan and Urumqi.
Once again, you jump to an unsubstantiated and generalized conclusion that Han have fewer rights. (if the Han that died lived in Urumqi, where could they be flown back to? and aren’t most of the deceased in China cremated by law now?) You really, really need to learn how to argue logicallly if you ever hope to persuade any adults of anything.
joyce on May 21st, 2010 at 1:55 am
@Kahraman,
Some relatives of Han went to Xinjiang to get the bodies and then the ashes. Cremation was not Han tradition at all. The law forces Han to cremate and save the farmland. Don’t you know all the unfavorable laws made just for Han? You are the one who should have some adult logics.
joyce on May 21st, 2010 at 2:00 am
@kahraman,
Some Han families of three generations were wiped out by vicious Uyghur and their relatives went to Xinjiang from other provinces. It is not hard to understand that they will hate Uyghur for generations to come.
kahraman on May 21st, 2010 at 2:21 am
Maybe cremation is against tradition, but the intent of the law is not to discriminate against Han, but rather to save scarce land. Could you imagine how much land would be needed to bury a billion people?
I don’t quite understand your second comment. Some Han will surely hate Uyghurs because of the riots but Uyghurs too have some legitimate long standing grievances against the Han. This doesn’t justify violence, but you should really at least try understand to other side of the story even if you don’t necessarily agree. If you can’t do that much, your comments are not worth responding to.
joyce on May 21st, 2010 at 2:45 am
Han have to sacrifice in more than one way and they have their grievances too.
kahraman on May 21st, 2010 at 1:40 pm
you’re hopeless
tez on May 21st, 2010 at 1:54 pm
“Unfavorable Laws for Han” = curtailing them from totally running roughshod over Minority peoples.
“Unfavorable Law for Han”= equality between the nationalities.
joyce on May 21st, 2010 at 2:19 pm
So the minorities should stop whining. There is no other country on earth appeasing its minorities like China. It it is not democratic but good for the minorities though.
yj on May 22nd, 2010 at 1:45 pm
From the above posts it seems it is you Joyce who is “whining” the most about the “unfair” polices towards the minorities. You argue that these are in favor of the minorities and decry that as anti-Han discrimination by the government. Your last statement then is void because you dont think this is a good thing. Your logic defies reason. Do you really think the government is prejudiced toward the Han majority? This is unlikely. In reality, not on paper, minorities are discriminated against in China on a daily basis. Try and book into a good hotel in Guangzhou or any other major Chinese city as a Uyghur or Tibetan…”Xinjiang Ren”- no rooms sorry! Ive seen this happen. So the so called favorable policies really mean little when it comes down to the average person.
Rural area is always poorer than urban area in China.
Percentage of urban labor force in professional, technical and administrative occupation
Year 1982 2000
Han 15.71 15.69
Manchu 20.10 18.93
Hui 15.11 16.23
Uyghur 10.63 18.45
Miao 4.41 14.75
Korean 19.47 19.65
Australia National University, Margaret Maurer-Fazio and James W. Hughes
There are plenty of other minorities needing more help than Uyghur. The group screaming the most might not be one needing help the most. I wonder how Kadeer got filthy rich and none of my relatives could not do the same. My relatives are Han.
[Reply]
Sorry, they were squeezed together but still readable. The guy denies the existence of middle class Uyghur, but he is one of them. I know that Mexicans try to get into USA illegally, are Uyghur trying to cross the border into other countries?
[Reply]
Human Being on May 19th, 2010 at 8:39 am
@Joyce,
I bet if got a chance, Uyghurs would cross the border in flocks. They did during the early 60s. But they can’t now, for fear that they will be shot by PLA soldiers (remember the Tibetan who was shot in front of a camera?). Getting out of China legally is not so easy either, since it is extremely hard to get passports for Uyghurs … Uyghurs have a saying “it is very hard to be a Uyghur in China”.
[Reply]
Arjun on May 20th, 2010 at 10:38 am
@ Human Being:
It was mostly Kazakhs and not Uyghurs who crossed over to the former Soviet Union during the 1960s at the instigation of the latter.
Human Being on May 21st, 2010 at 7:10 am
I did not mean to exclude Kazakhs, but of course there were Uyghurs who crossed the border in FLOCKS. I’m talking as someone whose relatives were among them.
tez on May 21st, 2010 at 10:57 am
at least 60,000 Uyghur in 1962
Arjun on May 22nd, 2010 at 10:37 am
If you say so, Tez. Published reports in the West, however, contradict that. That is not to disagree with you that given the chance, most Uyghurs (and many Hans, for that matter) will opt to leave the country and come here to the United States in spite of the current downturn in economy.
tez on May 22nd, 2010 at 10:53 am
Published reports please Arjun?
Also I didnt say: “that given the chance, most Uyghurs (and many Hans, for that matter) will opt to leave the country “?
Please read carefully.
tez on May 22nd, 2010 at 10:57 am
Arjun have you read this:
“Uighur migration across Central Asian frontiers”
Authors: William Clark ; Ablet Kamalov
Central Asian Survey, Volume 23, Issue 2 2004 , pages 167 – 182
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all~content=a713668093
Akihiro on May 22nd, 2010 at 4:20 pm
Arjun
Some of these Tibetans that you mentioned are also just went over to India for pilgrimages, who just want the blessing from Dalai Lama or some Buddhist education in India… and most of them did went back to Tibet later on. Which are also confirmed by the authority of India government. Some of these Tibetan and nuns who later went back to Tibet China was even interviewed.
And according to some foreign news (not from China), is that it’s mainly the west and the Tibetan government in exile who wanted to exaggerate the issue of their Tibetan that they immediately classified these Tibetan who cross over to India as “refugees”. And also they exaggerated the number of Tibetan who crossed over there. (All these are not from China news)
Sorry to say that, even with all these reasons… it is quite irrelevant that if most of the border guards surrounding Tibet is ethnic Tibetan PLA soldier.
Arjun on May 23rd, 2010 at 6:37 am
Thanks for the reference, Tez. Admittedly, I was wrong. My apologies.
joyce on May 20th, 2010 at 1:40 pm
I do not understand why those PLA soldiers did what they did.
I believe that China should give everyone passport. More people leave, the better. China will be less crowded and the draconian “One Child policy” might not be necessary anymore. That is just my wishful thinking. The passport can get you no where unless another country accepts you. That is why Mexicans come into USA illegally.
It seemed that some Uyghur did get out into Afghan and Pakistan. In Pakistan, Some Chinese workers were cut down while sleeping, probably by Uyghur. In Afghan, some Uyghur were captured after 911 and USA has been trying to find them new homes.
Uyghur were used to go to Central Asia to do business. After Soviet collapsed, Uyghur misjudged the situation and started secession activities which brought all the hardship of Uyghur.
Kadeer became the richest woman in China, but she used her money to support “Eastern Turkistan” and now lying around the world.
Akihiro on May 20th, 2010 at 6:31 pm
By the way, if I am not wrong… I think most of the Tibet border PLA guards are mostly ethnic Tibetan PLA soldier… as I read from an article somewhere.
Because the ethnic Tibetan themselves are familiar and get used to the landscape at those area, that’s why most of them are appointed as the border guards surrounding Tibet.
kahraman on May 21st, 2010 at 1:11 am
That is certainly not the case in Xinjiang. Having been to border areas in Altay, Korgos and Kashgar, I have never seen a single minority border guard. (those areas are all heavily populated with Kazakhs and Uyghurs)
Arjun on May 22nd, 2010 at 10:25 am
Akihiro: What you read was most likely untrue. The Economist reported that several thousand Tibetans had crossed into Nepal and India in recent years. but lately, the Nepalese forces have turned them back.
Akihiro on May 19th, 2010 at 1:59 pm
Good effort joyce!
I have been following up your comments all these while…
I also do learn a lot about China from your comments… and I really can understand more of the Chinese with an open-mind.
I do really feel very proud of you who can defend for China against most of the netizens here and even out-spoken them.
Some of them can even humiliate others of their poor writing of English… that I think, that’s really childish.
(By the way, a lot of westerners are now starting to learn Mandarin). So in the way, the Uyghur can be actually very fortunate… that they have the chance to learn Mandarin.
Frankly say that before… some years ago, I was also like most of them here who only believed and supported the view (propaganda) from the west that were against China…
But I am now no longer buying their ideal on China anymore…
Maybe as what some may feel that because of their western voices is louder in this world all these while…
(Some of them may still think that they are more superior in this world)
But I also came across a phase saying: “for those who speak more, they think less… and for those who speak less (like China) think more”
As a Christian (Catholic) myself… I do always pray for all the best for China.
Keep it up joyce!
[Reply]
kahraman on May 20th, 2010 at 1:31 am
I will make an item by item rebuttal of your case for Joyce
1.) No one has made fun of anyone for their poor English (tez corrected a misunderstanding). After all the writing has continued unabated by language difficulties.
2.)Westerners learning mandarin has no bearing on Uyghurs learning mandarin. this does not make the Uyghurs feel privileged.
3.) Frank’s point of view is plainly rash, racist and one sided. Most of his posts should have been ‘harmonized’ by the moderator.
4.) The west is not a monolith. The “West” is made up of dozens of states with great social variations. There does not exist a conspiracy, nor is there a xinhua or cctv that claims to speak officially for the “west”.
5.) no self identified westerner has claimed superiority over Chinese or others in this discussion. Most of the rancor is not directed against China as a whole but against the lack of evidence and lack of coherence of the government’s claims regarding xinjiang. (The chinese government and the Chinese people are not synonymous, please don’t pretend that they are)
6.) Your aphorism is nice, but irrelevant and unprovable. How much one talks and how much one thinks are clearly disconnected. (what if one always thinks out loud?) You then make a blanket generalization (again) about China and its people. I’ve never seen any real Chinese people sitting in their personal libraries contemplating the confucian classics while writing calligraphy. Many Chinese citizens describe themselves as quite gregarious actually.
7.) As a Catholic, you should probably not have a special place in your heart for China (an officially atheist country) over the west or anywhere else. As the word catholic implies, your faith is universal. As I recall, wasn’t Pope John Paul II actually considered instrumental in leading the charge against the indignities of the communist former Soviet Union? (by the way, didn’t Joyce directly attack your faith on several occasions? I guess defending China is more important than defending you deeply held beliefs.)
Akihiro on May 20th, 2010 at 12:22 pm
Kahraman
Maybe it’s the way I put it in my above comment sound like I am accusing “someone” here insulting my English…
But wait… before anymore misunderstanding towards anyone like tez…
When I am referring to those people who are childish that were insulting others English… I was actually referring to a netizen with a name “P…” that in his/her other comments insulted joyce about her writing English… which I feel that joyce is actually writing fine… so in the ways I find that “P… netizen” (maybe westerners) was actually being acting in a childish way while arguing…
So Kahrama, I don’t blame you for being misunderstood about my comments… but it nearly causes a great misunderstanding between me and tez…
And Tez
Personally I don’t have any grudge with you at all as I really don’t feel that you are insulting me… and you didn’t appear as rude to me at all also.
So I really hope that you will not take what Kahrama’s words in heart…
So back to Kahrama
Well, thanks for all your points of view regarding the westerners issue…
And regarding comments that was written by joyce, though I may feel that she doesn’t seem to like Christianity… it’s fine for me.
We Christian (Catholic or Protestant) can’t expect anyone to always love our religion…
As I always mentioned before that it take 2 hands to clap… when our Christianity did ever gave a very bad impression to the heart of the Chinese in the early years. The hurt is also very great for the Chinese after what westerner and Japan did to them before…
And it seem like some of these western nations didn’t feel remorse at all, while they are now still there for on going disturbing China.
And moreover we are now presently discussing more about China, so there is no need for me at all to get angry over certain Christianity issue here that I need to defend fiercely for it…
The more we argue about religious issue… it may cause more hatred.
And Kahraman, as what you wrote: As a Catholic, you should probably not have a special place in your heart for China…
So just for your little info… we as Catholic should love and care more for China…
And that is also what our Pope Benedict and Pope John Paul did ever emphasized.
tez on May 20th, 2010 at 1:08 pm
@ Akihiro
In your previous defense of #%$@ % you were very unclear as to what you meant. That is all. Kahraman was just pointing out the inconsistencies of your statement (s). I made a very special effort even before you posted the above of pointing out I was not being critical of your language (see post on other thread. I cannot find comments by “P” anywhere but will take your word for it- make yourself clearer is my advice.
Akihiro on May 20th, 2010 at 10:10 pm
kahraman
Maybe as just like what I said before, that my command of English maybe quite bad… that’s why there are some misunderstanding from you.
kahraman on May 21st, 2010 at 12:18 am
I fully understand you English. Its your logic that confuses me.
Akihiro on May 20th, 2010 at 10:06 pm
Ha… another misunderstanding that I just realized from your reply to me…
When I mentioned before:
———————–
“Frankly say that before… some years ago, I was also like most of them here who only believed and supported the view (propaganda) from the west that were against China…
But I am now no longer buying their ideal on China anymore…”
———————–
I was actually mentioning about myself and not that netizen “Frank”…
I just realize this misunderstanding from you after I read the comment from you again.
But it’s ok… just forget about it.
:)
joyce on May 20th, 2010 at 10:26 pm
@Akihiro,
Hi, I appreciate your tolerance very much, but I do not deserve all your compliments though.
I agree with you that it is childish to mock the English skills unless they are capable of commending better Chinese too. To me, it is an implication of failure and frustration over the debate. Do not be bothered a bit by that.
White superiority, at least Eurocentric, and Xinjiang have been mingled through the mummies in the Tarim Basin. Ancient Chinese literature described the “barbarians” of alien look earlier than the Western record of the encounter. It had been long scoffed as fantasy literature. It is funny they thought their looks were magically fitting to ancient Chinese fantasy.
It was not Chinese fantasy because some mummies of Caucasian origin were found in Tarim Basin. Those European looking mummies were enamored by all kind of experts to the point of sickness; they were tall and beautiful. Well, most of the mummies were short and you know what, the average height of British men 300 years ago was 5’7”. The mummies led to all kinds of speculations such as Chinese civilization might not be original and Chinese could have been civilized by white men. The yellow emperor might be a white man with blonde hairs, but Yellow River (Huang He) was the mother river of Chinese. One thing is obvious to me; Chinese put on clothes earlier because white people are very hairy.
Uyghur nationalists were quick to cling onto the mummies too. But the oldest Caucasian mummies were 4000 yrs old and the oldest East Asian mummies were 3000 yrs old in Tarim Basin. Original Uyghur living in current Mongolia were East Asians from the archaeological evidences. They migrated to oases of Xinjiang in 845 A.D. Maybe Uyghur believe that Indo-Europeans are superior and that can help Uyghur cause and they should not be ruled by “yellow skinned” Chinese.
Central Asians are mix of Indo-Europeans and East Asians from DNA evidences. The region was the crossroad of civilizations. Before Islam, Budhasm was the dominate religion there. I believe that Uyghur adopted Arabic scripts during Arab expansion. How are they compared to the modern Arabic scripts, anyone here?
Tez
Haha…! Yes, maybe my previous defense for joyce regarding on the “#%$@ %” issue… I wasn’t that clear of who am I referring to…? Which normally I try to avoid naming out certain netizen’s name when giving negative comment just in a way of respecting them. And I try to avoid nasty quarrel in all these comments like what always happen in Youtube.
Because I find that the “P…” is really being very arrogant in the way he/she put up his/her comment.
But definitely that’s not you, tez.
So in conclusion, this issue of “#%$@ %” really got nothing to do with you at all even from the beginning…
And I thought that you won’t get any offended even if you happen to read it.
[Reply]
I wasnt.
[Reply]
Akihiro on May 20th, 2010 at 6:13 pm
Ok, I am happy to hear that…!
Peace!
[Reply]
You may want to also look into the closure of sms/mms services and compare that impact to the internet closure. Thank good that was locked down, because relevant ugly pics and hate would have travelled to the far reaches of Xinjiang and beyond muc more effectively and fast than any info relyed via Internet
[Reply]
[This comment has been deleted by the moderator. Opinion = good; profanity = bad]
[Reply]
joyce on May 21st, 2010 at 12:37 am
@josh,
That was not much of profanity
You “harmonize” more than the commie.
[Reply]
Josh on May 21st, 2010 at 12:49 am
I’m sorry if I haven’t made this clear, Joyce, but I will do so now. There will be NO PROFANITY on this site. Yours isn’t the only comment I have edited, so don’t feel singled out.
A comment that consists of “You are a *?#*&” doesn’t really help this conversation anyway. I’m sure you’re smart enough to come up with something a bit more creative.
Be mad all you want, but I’ve been harmonized enough in China (for things much more ridiculous than profanity) to know that if you can’t take it, just leave.
joyce on May 21st, 2010 at 1:24 am
I am not mad. I am not all popped up by testosterones.
joyce on May 21st, 2010 at 2:08 am
I meant “pumped up”.
Akihiro:
It must be stated unequivocally that personal attacks or barbs should have no bearing on the arguments one makes. In a previous debate with Joyce, regarding the name of Xinjiang, the record is clear: Joyce’s arguments are systematically and at every turn disproved. They are poor, unexamined arguments. Return to that threat of comments and notice how Joyce peters out of the argument leaving most of her refuted arguments unaddressed.
Your defense of Joyce is also biased. Of course I mocked her English. But I was specifically mocking the way she was insulting me in English. So, for Christ’s sake, qualify your statements. Joyce opens herself up to ridicule if she’s attempting to insult me in my native language and doing it POORLY. And why doesn’t Joyce get some flack on your side for resorting to insults to cover up poor arguments?
Finally, I have to get this off my chest:
The very idea that discussion of social issues on the “Internet” MUST have civility is a trope. It’s implicitly accepted as true, and I question that. Civility is totally irrelevant. What is relevant is the persuasiveness and factual basis of arguments. Glenn Beck may be raging and total uncivil, but his arguments are wrong, and that’s all that matters. Jon Stewart is also uncivil, telling Fox news to go “[deleted by moderator]” in a recent, celebrated segment. But his criticism is valid irrespective of how coarse it is because it is poignant and on-spot.
I criticize the “must be civil” Internet trope not only because it’s uncritically swallowed whole, but moreso because it has mutated into a tried-and-true unassailable “cop-out” – it’s the “race card” of the Internet. I invite all readers to conduct a personal experiment: whenever someone slings out the “ad hominem” or “personal insult” excuse, it’s almost *always* when their argument is beginning to appear unsustainable.
Joyce is an excellent example of this. As soon I had deconstructed and obliterated her trite, recycled points, that is exactly when I was accused (in broken English) of being a “mouth-foaming” dog or something like that. It doesn’t matter that she called me that. And it doesn’t matter that I mocked her English. All that matters is that Joyce’s arguments are wrong and can be proven wrong.
It’s stupid to assume that just because someone is “debating” that he doesn’t have the right to be angry. That’s ridiculous. What God or President or Chairman descended from the cloudy mountains and said anger has no place in discussions? The last time I checked, many of the values that people hold dear were made in the forge of righteous indignation. The Chinese who threw off the shackles of the Qing dynasty and Western imperialism were angry. The African Americans who marched in Selma for Civil Rights were angry. The suffragists who fought for and earned the right to vote for women were angry. And I’m angry, and I’m not going to be cowed by unthinking dolts like Joyce and their accusations of me being aggressive.
So step back, all of you, and reexamine this dumb assumption that discussion must never, ever have anger and emotion. At best, it’s an unmerited assumption, at worse, it’s a shield for weak minds like Joyce to hide behind.
[Reply]
tez on May 21st, 2010 at 1:01 am
Hear, Hear Porfiry.
However, I think overall – and I am quite adept at the use of expletives – its best not to go there if it can be said in another way.
[Reply]
kahraman on May 21st, 2010 at 1:14 am
del shundaq, Porfiriy yoldash!
[Reply]
“As a Catholic, you should probably not have a special place in your heart for China (an officially atheist country) over the west or anywhere else.”
Both are not mutually exclusive. He is a man of tolerance; don’t we need that a lot? I did not attack religions and what I stated about religions were facts. Religions should reform with time.
[Reply]
kahraman on May 21st, 2010 at 12:29 am
What you stated about religion was an opinion supported with generalizations. But in any event, this discussion is not about religion. And sure, a degree of tolerance is not entirely bad, unless that also means tolerating falsehood.
[Reply]
joyce on May 21st, 2010 at 12:42 am
Can you specify the “falsehood”? Aren’t we all expressing our own opinions?
kahraman on May 21st, 2010 at 2:08 am
Sure, everyone is expressing their opinion, but it adds nothing to our understanding of the situation in Xinjiang if those opinions have no factual basis. Having lived in Xinjiang and followed events in there for several years now, I’m continually surprised by the stereotypes, generalizations, conspiracy theories and lies that emanate from both sides of the debate. Some of those people will never be convinced otherwise. But for those who really want to understand Xinjiang though, there is no room for sloppy arguments and playing loose with the facts.
@Akihiro,
I do believe that Uyghur should have the choice to be educated without learning Mandarin in Uyghur dominated areas, though Mandarin will be beneficial for them. I personally do not like the Western skyscrapers in China and they should have been built with Chinese characters. Uyghur’s old towns should be rebuilt with their flavors too.
[Reply]
kahraman on May 21st, 2010 at 12:33 am
I’m curious how “western” skyscrapers could be built in China by Chinese. and how do you build one with Chinese characters (汉字)? (i hope you mean chinese characteristics 特色)
[Reply]
joyce on May 21st, 2010 at 12:48 am
“Character” has multiple meanings and one of them is characteristics.
joyce on May 21st, 2010 at 1:20 am
You are good at picking the details and of course I meant “western style”.
kahraman on May 21st, 2010 at 2:12 am
I’ve detected some antipathy toward the ‘west’ in your posts. I just want to make sure you arent’ accusing the ‘west’ of some sort of architectural imperialism aimed at undermining Chinese culture.
joyce on May 21st, 2010 at 2:55 am
No, Chinese love the West more than its worth.
How much have things changed?:
http://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/internet-05192010113601.html
[Reply]
tez on May 21st, 2010 at 3:06 pm
“An employee who answered the phone at the Xinjiang Negative News Reporting Line said “negative” information is that which harms ethnic unity and national security.
“It is information which, according to the rules on Internet information, harms unity, especially ethnic unity in Xinjiang, such as hate speech between [ethnic groups],” he said.
[Reply]
tez on May 21st, 2010 at 3:47 pm
http://www.rferl.org/content/After_Facebook_Pakistan_Shuts_Down_YouTube/2047818.html
RFA is not a reliable source but a bigger liar than the commie.
[Reply]
Akihiro on May 22nd, 2010 at 1:13 pm
@joyce
You are being very humble. And yes, you really do deserve my compliment.
I feel that your comments are also being unbiased and rather in a more open-minded ways than those other comments here which are mainly only in a one-sided views.
That’s a very interesting post from you which regarding about the histories of the Caucasian and the Uyghur.
Yes, I remember that I did come across article about… the original land where the Uyghur came from was actually from the Mongolia area.
That’s mean if they really need to argue for the independence of Xinjiang for the Uyghur… that’s not the original land suppose for the Uyghur!!! Moreover presently, the land of Xinjiang doesn’t belong only to the home of the Uyghur but to also many other ethnic races.
I did came across an article written from certain intellect from Turkey which did also mentioned that Uyghur were originally from the area of Mongolia… and actually some of the Han Chinese were even been there in the land of Xinjiang much earlier before the Uyghur went there. Honestly this is only what I heard about from the Turkish intellect (maybe a historian) who did mentioned before. And honestly I myself am not that familiar about the Uyghur and the land of Xinjiang.
But as for my understanding about Xinjiang when I was very young was that… the people there are Chinese, and the land of Xinjiang is always a part of China since in the ancient world… as for the different feature of the “Chinese” (Uyghur) there who looks a bit different from the other Han Chinese… in my own explanation about that was… the feature of any human would tend to change in according to landscape and area… (Just like when the northern European looks differently from the southern European)
Haha… these are only just a little sharing of my past experience about Xinjiang when I was very young.
Anyway I do agree that some of them (other netizens) here maybe quite rude and…. can even ask you to leave here if you can’t take it (or don’t like it).
I was also being mock as being ask to join thing like “World most interesting man… or what so ever”… just because I speak out for China, when although it is not my homeland at all. But it’s alright for me as I am aware that there will be all sort of different funny comments that we will always get from the web… especially in Youtube… which are very uncivilized.
So joyce please don’t take it to heart.
As I did mentioned before that many comments and some articles here are actually being bias against China where they are interested in digging out the past faults or the scars of China as to either mock or accuse them (in fact I think that will cause even more hatred between the Han and the Uyghur). Where as what I know is that, China didn’t at all… who always find all the fault of the westerners or keeping on accusing them of their sinful past about how they treated China before.
As there is a saying: “do not do it upon others if you do not want it to be done to you”
I can even receive comment to me as claiming that: “As a Catholic, you should probably not have a special place in your heart for China (an officially atheist country) over the west or anywhere else…”
Ha…! Which mean as a Catholic Christian myself, I can’t have any love for China?!!!
That’s the most ridicules and irresponsible way of saying that I ever came across… I will share this joke with my fellow Christian friends.
As I can now start expecting that many of them here will be start posting in comments as to accuse me and “fire” me or even humiliate me…
…or maybe I will even be ask to leave here or unwelcome…
But it will be fine for me.
Definitely you have much more better knowledge about China than me… and even when compare to some of them here (which are only bias) which didn’t help at all in creating harmony.
So it will be good for you to let them know about the true China.
And as I said, keep it up joyce!
[Reply]
kahraman on May 22nd, 2010 at 2:30 pm
kapakbash besh maw partiya ezasi! siler peket umidsiz
discussion with you is now officially hopeless. maybe you and joyce should join the discussion at truexinjiang.com……….
tez on May 22nd, 2010 at 5:50 pm
Ahiriko,
seeing you state you know very little about the Uyghur and the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region (which is strange seeing you have so much to say on these topics) this link may help you understand some of the processes that occur in the dissemination of information regarding the so called Xinjiang mummies- actually dessicated corpses:
http://www.bruce-humes.com/?p=2125
More academic articles await you if you care enough to search for them. Let us know what you discover about the DNA makeup. I think you will find the east Asian element is slight. But please feel free to inform me when you find out for your self.
I wonder how much response this letter to the new Zhang will receive? Obviously some of the blocked sites they speak of could not be re-opened because of their overt Uyghur nationalist content:
http://en.rsf.org/china-open-letter-to-the-xinjiang-s-20-05-2010,37527.html
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Open letter to the Xinjiang’s party secretary
«The solution to your region’s problems does not lie solely in the application of economic remedies. It also requires increased respect for freedom of expression, to which its inhabitants have a right, and a reduction or elimination of censorship about the Uyghur cause, which cannot be branded as just terrorism. …
Above all, many journalists, netizens and website editors are still in jail. They include Dilshat Parhat (the co-founder of the Uyghur website Diyarim), Nureli (the creator of the Uyghur website Selkin), Muhemmet (the head of another Uyghur website), Obulkasim (a contributor to Diyarim) and the journalist Gheyret Niyaz.»
Reporters Without Borders, indubitably another corja of liars.
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Hi,I have visited your website recently.Really glad that you can devoted so many time and energy to xinjiang.Due to GFW,your website can not be accessed by most mainland people.
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